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Should first responders be sent to revive/save Heroin addicts who have overdosed

Should society stop saving heroin addicts from their own behavior

  • Yes, if they want to do something that stupid, we shouldn't pay for it

    Votes: 7 17.5%

  • Yes, let Darwin reign supreme

    Votes: 5 12.5%

  • Yes, its better for society in the long run to weed these losers out

    Votes: 5 12.5%

  • No-society has a duty to save addicts no matter what the cost

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • Total voters
    40
TurtleDude said:
word gets out? its been on every news cast over the last month when the cops and DEA found out that dealers were cutting the stuff with that animal tranquilizer. a grain of the stuff-the size of a #9 bird shot pellet, can kill you. Senator Portman has been running ads constantly about his bill (which IIRC Obama signed) dealing with opium addictions. Billboards are talking about the problem as well.

yeah I know-Heroin addicts don't read the papers, don't watch tv, don't listen to fire chiefs, the mayor, county commissioners, the County Coroner etc.
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There's been many adulterated drug epidemics, often heroin, and yes they do run their course.

Junkies may not be the most news aware individuals, but by the nature of their addiction they associate and have communities and word does get around on the street. They do notice OD's and death.

Making a "no treatment" exception is a dangerous slope to go down. Hell, I'll call it wrong even without going down *any* slope.
 
I have no problem making the call. These people truly need our help.

I think not only should we treat them but I think anyone that OD even on alcohol should be sent to mandatory drug rehabilitation. I think that the courts should remand them to a mental hospital the second time around. Anyone who OD is mentally unstable and we need to work towards finding a cure not hope the problem just magically goes away.

I would rather my tax dollars spent trying to solve the problem than spent on prisons or jails. We are way behind in mental health and the ability to help and cure people. When someone tears up their knee playing sports we have spent all kinds of money to be able to fix it back. But when someone develops a mental disorder like drug addiction or even most of our criminals have mental disorders we do not give it the same emphasis. The problem will only get worse by looking the other way. We need to acknowledge mental illness and start working towards the cure.
 
ajn678 said:
If there are problems where we don't have enough first responders, then they should hire more .
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Another "throw money at the problem" liberal extremist.
 
reinoe said:
Another "throw money at the problem" liberal extremist.
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Well ****, why even have them in the first place? If you can't get to the hospital on your own, just go ahead and die!
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I have no problem making the call. These people truly need our help.

I think not only should we treat them but I think anyone that OD even on alcohol should be sent to mandatory drug rehabilitation. I think that the courts should remand them to a mental hospital the second time around. Anyone who OD is mentally unstable and we need to work towards finding a cure not hope the problem just magically goes away.

I would rather my tax dollars spent trying to solve the problem than spent on prisons or jails. We are way behind in mental health and the ability to help and cure people. When someone tears up their knee playing sports we have spent all kinds of money to be able to fix it back. But when someone develops a mental disorder like drug addiction or even most of our criminals have mental disorders we do not give it the same emphasis. The problem will only get worse by looking the other way. We need to acknowledge mental illness and start working towards the cure.
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Uhm, mainly because Republicans demands for a smaller government and less taxes meant, and still means, not enough dollars being invested in mental health facilities while too much is invested in private prisons.
 
Chomsky said:
There's been many adulterated drug epidemics, often heroin, and yes they do run their course.

Junkies may not be the most news aware individuals, but by the nature of their addiction they associate and have communities and word does get around on the street. They do notice OD's and death.

Making a "no treatment" exception is a dangerous slope to go down. Hell, I'll call it wrong even without going down *any* slope.
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you make a fair point but I would triage Heroin ODs and in terms of priority for first responders, put them at the back of the line compared to say accident victims or crime victims
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I have no problem making the call. These people truly need our help.

I think not only should we treat them but I think anyone that OD even on alcohol should be sent to mandatory drug rehabilitation. I think that the courts should remand them to a mental hospital the second time around. Anyone who OD is mentally unstable and we need to work towards finding a cure not hope the problem just magically goes away.

I would rather my tax dollars spent trying to solve the problem than spent on prisons or jails. We are way behind in mental health and the ability to help and cure people. When someone tears up their knee playing sports we have spent all kinds of money to be able to fix it back. But when someone develops a mental disorder like drug addiction or even most of our criminals have mental disorders we do not give it the same emphasis. The problem will only get worse by looking the other way. We need to acknowledge mental illness and start working towards the cure.
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:thumbs:

And yeah, I like the idea of mandatory rehab for ODs.

Better yet: Make it a 72 hour hold, with a judges review as to whether rehab is indicated.

Sounds reasonable and with due process, to me.
 
TurtleDude said:
you make a fair point but I would triage Heroin ODs and in terms of priority for first responders, put them at the back of the line compared to say accident victims or crime victims
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Okay, I'm liking the triage aspect, however then it would make most sense for attempted suicide to be at the bottom of the list. They were choosing to die, the ODs were just choosing to get high, the OD itself is presumably accidental. Also it would mean putting things like skydiving, and many other activities where one has reasonable expectation of injury or death, near the bottom.
 
TurtleDude said:
those are accidental injuries. if people were intentionally shooting themselves, I'd say no

you cannot watch a newscast in Cincinnati without seeing warnings about the fact that dealers are cutting smack with elephant tranquilizers and other nasty things. There are more people ODing in SW Ohio in the last 2 months than there have been accidental shootings in the last 5 years
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Oh trust me - no one doing drugs intends on going to the hospital or dying from it. And even if they did, we give aide to people who intentionally hurt themselves (yep). Like those who attempt to commit suicide.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Oh trust me - no one doing drugs intends on going to the hospital or dying from it. And even if they did, we give aide to people who intentionally hurt themselves (yep). Like those who attempt to commit suicide.
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of course we do but as medical care becomes more and more expensive, we are going to have to allocate those scarce resources and when it comes to cutting back on things-addicts are, IMHO, places where we can cut back on. especially repeat ODs
 
TurtleDude said:
In SW Ohio there is a huge increase in the number of heroin overdoses. Our first responders have been tied up responding to Heroin addicts' suffering overdoses and this in turn is expensive as it consumes the time of the responders plus the medical costs of reviving and then treating addicts.

Should society stop wasting money and time on idiots who engage in such self-destructive behavior
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Compassion has a price tag I guess. Here, we figure spending a whole lot of money in prevention and recovery. It's the usual slippery slope eugenics issue in a new form; there will always be those who say **** 'em, they contribute nothing to society. In Nazi Germany they called the elderly "useless eating machines".

Where is the line in your society?
 
TurtleDude said:
of course we do but as medical care becomes more and more expensive, we are going to have to allocate those scarce resources and when it comes to cutting back on things-addicts are, IMHO, places where we can cut back on. especially repeat ODs
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Medical care is not a scare resource.

Watch out which ethics you're willing to sacrifice lest you be the one choking on a hot dog and no one wants to lift a finger because - eh - he's the guy who didn't give a **** about anyone else so why bother.
 
ajn678 said:
If there are problems where we don't have enough first responders, then they should hire more. My dad has diabetes because he had a **** diet for a lot of his life. I would hate to hear that they didn't go to him because they blamed him for his health problems. At the end of the day, people need help, and many people that get help from 911 can trace back personal decisions to why they are getting it.
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There are many towns/cities that would love to hire more. Problem is they do not get enough applicants. This especially true with small towns.
Let's say that their is enough applicants for the vacancies and any additional jobs. Without raising taxes and / or cutting from other programs how would the additional responders be paid? Most people would love more service, but they don't want to pay for it.

PIPEWRENCH said:
I have no problem making the call. These people truly need our help.

I think not only should we treat them but I think anyone that OD even on alcohol should be sent to mandatory drug rehabilitation. I think that the courts should remand them to a mental hospital the second time around. Anyone who OD is mentally unstable and we need to work towards finding a cure not hope the problem just magically goes away.

I would rather my tax dollars spent trying to solve the problem than spent on prisons or jails. We are way behind in mental health and the ability to help and cure people. When someone tears up their knee playing sports we have spent all kinds of money to be able to fix it back. But when someone develops a mental disorder like drug addiction or even most of our criminals have mental disorders we do not give it the same emphasis. The problem will only get worse by looking the other way. We need to acknowledge mental illness and start working towards the cure.
Click to expand...

I know of a person who is an addict. He has been to rehab, got cleaned, and go figured relapsed. He lost his good tech programming job due to drugs. A year ago got busted for theft (needed money for drugs). He went to jail, got cleaned up. He was out for less than 60 days, and relapsed again.

imo, rehab works only if the person really wants to get off drugs and stay clean. It is also my opinion that in some cases it is a waste of tax dollars to treat such individuals. People make personal choices. Some of them are not good.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Medical care is not a scare resource.

Watch out which ethics you're willing to sacrifice lest you be the one choking on a hot dog and no one wants to lift a finger because - eh - he's the guy who didn't give a **** about anyone else so why bother.
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the tax dollars to constantly pay for this is a scarce resource. I constantly hear democrat politicians saying we need more and more taxes to pay for everything for better schools for the poor to new bridges and roads. the fact is, we cannot afford half the crap that everyone claims is necessary. we spend way too much money on crap that is caused by poor personal choices and I for one, tire of being told I have to pay more and more taxes due to the irresponsible actions of others
 
TurtleDude said:
what if a heart attack victim or the victim of a shooting dies because the first responders are tied up treating self inflicted heroin overdoses?
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Then you've got a big problem with your health system and you need a British style NHS or a French style Sécurité Sociale where both would get quick, first class treatment.
 
mike2810 said:
There are many towns/cities that would love to hire more. Problem is they do not get enough applicants. This especially true with small towns.
Let's say that their is enough applicants for the vacancies and any additional jobs. Without raising taxes and / or cutting from other programs how would the additional responders be paid? Most people would love more service, but they don't want to pay for it.



I know of a person who is an addict. He has been to rehab, got cleaned, and go figured relapsed. He lost his good tech programming job due to drugs. A year ago got busted for theft (needed money for drugs). He went to jail, got cleaned up. He was out for less than 60 days, and relapsed again.

imo, rehab works only if the person really wants to get off drugs and stay clean. It is also my opinion that in some cases it is a waste of tax dollars to treat such individuals. People make personal choices. Some of them are not good.
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I haven't look at the numbers of applicants vs need, but perhaps they should be paid more. They seem to make pretty awful salary for what they do.
 
Urethra Franklin said:
Then you've got a big problem with your health system and you need a British style NHS or a French style Sécurité Sociale where both would get quick, first class treatment.
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I dont support the level of taxation that those two societies impose on productive people to pay for that crap. and most of the Democrats won't support the level of taxation those two societies impose on the bottom 50% to pay for that either
 
TurtleDude said:
I dont support the level of taxation that those two societies impose on productive people to pay for that crap. and most of the Democrats won't support the level of taxation those two societies impose on the bottom 50% to pay for that either
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One of your fellow countrymen once said he loved paying taxes because that's what bought him a civilised society. I'm sure you know the quote as it's famous, but for others, it was Oliver Wendell Holmes. Taxes are a pain, yes, but I think we get value for money here.
 
TurtleDude said:
In SW Ohio there is a huge increase in the number of heroin overdoses. Our first responders have been tied up responding to Heroin addicts' suffering overdoses and this in turn is expensive as it consumes the time of the responders plus the medical costs of reviving and then treating addicts.

Should society stop wasting money and time on idiots who engage in such self-destructive behavior
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No.

This is fun! Give me another!
 
Urethra Franklin said:
One of your fellow countrymen once said he loved paying taxes because that's what bought him a civilised society. I'm sure you know the quote as it's famous, but for others, it was Oliver Wendell Holmes. Taxes are a pain, yes, but I think we get value for money here.
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He also said this:

We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. [...] Three generations of imbeciles are enough.
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Pick your idols wisely.

Btw, that ruling was cited in Roe v. Wade. Good times.
 
Chomsky said:
Oh, comon! :doh
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I am serious. Quite a few of my doctors have gone private since Obamacare. They don't accept insurance. You pay him and you collect the money from your insurance or government if you can. The hand surgeon who fixed my hand won't do any more work for insurance. He said most of his staff was needed to get paid. He said now I can work half as much, charge half as much, and take home twice as much. He said before he would spend as much money to collect from the insurance as it cost to do the surgery if not more.
 
TurtleDude said:
In SW Ohio there is a huge increase in the number of heroin overdoses. Our first responders have been tied up responding to Heroin addicts' suffering overdoses and this in turn is expensive as it consumes the time of the responders plus the medical costs of reviving and then treating addicts.

Should society stop wasting money and time on idiots who engage in such self-destructive behavior
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Have you read Dreamland? Friend recommended it to me, very interesting read. The issue isn't as black and white as you'd think it be.

51MVEdpcsEL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


The rise of OxyContin addiction and subsequent heroin use has been much in the news lately as we try to make sense of what is happening in suburban and small town America. Sam Quinones’ Dreamland takes a multifaceted approach to the subject, profiling people from all walks of life, ranging from citizens of impoverished Mexican ranchos to young affluent white athletes, all cogs in the wheel of the latest drug epidemic. Unlike the crack cocaine phenomenon of the 1980s, today’s widespread opiate addiction has roots in the prescription pads of certified physicians and the marketing machine of Big Pharma. When the addict, forced by availability and economics, transitions to heroin he is met by a new breed of entrepreneurial drug dealers who are only too happy to take calls and make deliveries. The changing landscape of small town America, along with science, opportunity, shame, and of course greed, all play a role here and to see the puzzle come together, one comprehensible piece at a time, is as fascinating as it is unsettling.-- Seira Wilson

https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-Tr...UTF8&qid=1472096183&sr=8-1&keywords=dreamland
 
TurtleDude said:
In SW Ohio there is a huge increase in the number of heroin overdoses. Our first responders have been tied up responding to Heroin addicts' suffering overdoses and this in turn is expensive as it consumes the time of the responders plus the medical costs of reviving and then treating addicts.

Should society stop wasting money and time on idiots who engage in such self-destructive behavior
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Okay, it's a judgement call. Who gets saddled with the decisions? EMT? Dispatcher? Who decides who dies and who gets a chance at life?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I am serious. Quite a few of my doctors have gone private since Obamacare. They don't accept insurance. You pay him and you collect the money from your insurance or government if you can. The hand surgeon who fixed my hand won't do any more work for insurance. He said most of his staff was needed to get paid. He said now I can work half as much, charge half as much, and take home twice as much. He said before he would spend as much money to collect from the insurance as it cost to do the surgery if not more.
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Fair enough there, PW.

But we're talking paramedics and ERs here ... this is emergency triage.
 
Winchester said:
Have you read Dreamland? Friend recommended it to me, very interesting read. The issue isn't as black and white as you'd think it be.

51MVEdpcsEL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


The rise of OxyContin addiction and subsequent heroin use has been much in the news lately as we try to make sense of what is happening in suburban and small town America. Sam Quinones’ Dreamland takes a multifaceted approach to the subject, profiling people from all walks of life, ranging from citizens of impoverished Mexican ranchos to young affluent white athletes, all cogs in the wheel of the latest drug epidemic. Unlike the crack cocaine phenomenon of the 1980s, today’s widespread opiate addiction has roots in the prescription pads of certified physicians and the marketing machine of Big Pharma. When the addict, forced by availability and economics, transitions to heroin he is met by a new breed of entrepreneurial drug dealers who are only too happy to take calls and make deliveries. The changing landscape of small town America, along with science, opportunity, shame, and of course greed, all play a role here and to see the puzzle come together, one comprehensible piece at a time, is as fascinating as it is unsettling.-- Seira Wilson

https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-Tr...UTF8&qid=1472096183&sr=8-1&keywords=dreamland
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Hey, that's getting excellent Amazon reviews!

Going to scope it out, and probably order.

Thanks! :thumbs:
 
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