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Who do neocons want?

Who do neocons want?

  • Trump

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • Clinton

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
Trump- doesn't support iraq and called neoconservative hero Bush a liar, failure and blamed him for 9-11(a pivotal event in neocon history). He does seem more hawkish then clinton though.

Clinton. Voted for iraq. I think she also supported libya and syria.

Who you got neocons?


What do people belonging to (and/or supporting) a movement from the 1960s, made up of disaffected Democrats, vote for?




I know the term was used to describe certain members of the Bush admin and their supporters, but I don't think they really believed quite the same things as the original "neocons." They were basically hawkish Democrats who also tended to prefer alternative reforms to programs such as those growing out of The Great Society, but did not embrace the full-throated rejection of any safety net program mentioned as do the modern people who have been labeled "neocon".

Basically, I think the modern group of "neocons" is generally far more amenable to a world view of simplistic good and evil, this being derived from religion, as or a tad more hawkish, and far more hostile to safety net policies and other policies generally aimed at improving the public welfare at public cost.
 
I presume you are familiar with Operation Paperclip, then? :) If not, I strongly recommend you familiarize, I think it has a lot to do with America's growing authoritarianism, neocons and tilt to the right (besides the Cold War itself)...
of course i know about operation paperclip dont patronize me

thank you!
your welcome
 
You mean India? How exactly was Britain going to keep it? India was gaining independence, one way or another, and the Brits couldn't have stopped them on the heels of WW2.

True enough. I do think there were other forces at work besides Ghandi's independence front, however.
 
The Scoop Jackson Democrats of the 1960s and 1970s would continue to have their influence in the political debate increase. Recoiling from the New Left's romanticism of socialist and communist regimes, having serious misgivings about the Nixon and Carter administration's use of détente, and the overall posture of America's nuclear strategy, Scoop Jackson Democrats fought against all of the above. Albert Wohlstetter and his followers (Perle, Wolfowitz, among others) argued that the Soviet Union was not interested in peace and that detente's nuclear arms deals were giving the Soviet Union a distinct advantage in the Cold War. Scoop Jackson Democrats also pre-emptied Carter's human rights plank by being the first to argue that human rights needed to be a central component to any negotiations with the Soviet Union (in particular, it's Jewish citizenry). Daniel Patrick Moynihan, upon becoming UN ambassador also challenged the UN General Assembly for its disdain of Israel and its fawning of Soviet-backed regimes. Jeanne Kirkpatrick would later bring in similar messages when she too would be UN Ambassador during Reagan's administration.

In short: Scoop Jackson Democrats were Wilsonian Hawks, but we're still needing to defend U.S. Policy of backing right-wing authoritarian regimes. It was Paul Wolfowitz that first broke rank on that problem, upsetting the realist camp, most notably Henry Kissinger.

Domestic policy wise, neoconservatives kept trying to adjust what it saw as the downfalls of the Great Society. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, during his time in the Nixon administration was vigorously trying to find a means of providing welfare, but without extinguishing the inducements to seek employment or maintain a two-parent household. Moynihan was famous in the 1960s for telling America that welfare was coinciding with the breakdown of the African American family. Historical, social, and political forces were making it difficult for African Americans to keep what was presumed to be optimal economic prospects and family strength. These "Moynihan's scissors" would later, to his dismay, later impact white America at the same time that problems grew worse for African Americans. Nathan Glazer focused on whether or not African Americans could eventually become "Americanized" as he and other European immigrants had in previous generations. It would be a primary focus of his research, up through the late 1990s. He helped articulate what would be some of the stronger critiques of Affirmative Action and multiculturalism, before eventually relenting to some of their uses in his late 1990s text, "We Are All Multiculturalists Now." James Q. Wilson spent most of his time trying to evaluate the capability of government's bureaucratic agencies and criminal justice reform. He became most famous for he and another colleague coming up with the "Broken Windows" philosophy to policing, which encouraged cracking down on minor crimes to prevent bigger ones and to increase beat policing instead of the then-prominent car policing. By making residents feel safe (while occasionally arresting violent offenders for minor offenses) and creating a more personal relationship between citizen and police, Wilson and Kellogg argued the crime wave of the 1960s could dissipate. Forms of this theory would be used by New York and other states. Lately it has become the target of the Black Lives Matter movement and various conservatives alike for overbooking non-violent offenders and offering a racially-biased policing technique. Kellogg, after Wilson's passing argued that most states hadn't really followed Broken Windows and its prescriptions for a more personable police force, so it shouldn't be blamed for the current crisis.

Neoconservatism also weighed heavily with education reform, leading most prominently to the standardization and accountability movement of the Reagan and H.W. Bush administration. It also reignited a cultural war with postmodernism and multiculturalism in regard to humanities education at both K-12 and higher education. This was where followers of Leo Strauss also enjoyed more cohesive connections with other branches of neoconservatism, because Allan Bloom's "Closing of the American Mind" became one of the biggest texts by which the conservative movement had to grapple with proper education in the humanities.


While neoconservatism was being more heartedly considered within the Reagan and Bush years, there was always still some distinctions they had with the mainstream conservative movement. In education alone, they were not among those who called to destroy the Department of Education. Rather, they sought to reform it and the operations of schools across the country with a mixture of market principles and accountability measures, matched with a renewed purpose of teaching the Western canon.

Part 3 coming. .
 
With the widespread fall of communism in the early 1990s, neoconservatives of various stripes joined in the celebration of the winning out of western democracies. Many neoconservatives had felt they were in the Truman-Kennedy camp of foreign policy vision and it had in large respect won out to New Left prescriptions for civil co-existence with the Soviet Union. Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History and the Last Man" argued that human progress in government largely culminated to western liberal democracies. This contradicted Marxist doctrine, which presumed that History (writ large) would "end" with the fall of capitalism, the enactment of socialism, and the creation of Communism.

Much of neoconservatism rested on the assumption that the great conflict of modern civilization was between the democratic way of life and socialism and communism. Without that great enemy about, neoconservatism kind of entered a transitional phase. Irving Kristol sought to more or less have U.S. Foreign policy retract from the world once more, embracing a more ardently realist perspective. Over the next several years, however, his son would have different ideas. William Kristol and Robert Kagan, along with several other figures in the previous fight came together to redefine America's purpose in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. They didn't want to be called "neoconservative" because they had always, more or less, been conservatives and hadn't had that "left to right" transition that their parents did, and, on top of that, neoconservatives became identified with the Cold War which was now over. They called themselves "neo-Reaganites" and followed a modified form of Scoop Democrat philosophy. More hawkish than most realists and liberals alike, but valuing human rights and the virtues of democracy, these neo-Reaganites would take advantage of the "unipolar moment" by being the big brother of the world, ready to defend the helpless against the perceived enemies of the western world and American interests. Prime on their list included: Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and China. Though often they disagreed with one another, this group had a much more cohesive vision for a policy movement than most neoconservatives previously had.

Meanwhile the old dogs of the neoconservative movement focused their attention toward the culture wars of the 1990s and celebrated, to a large extent, the victory of their ideas in the GOP. Many neoconservatives felt that nihilism had taken hold of American life and it needed to be rectified by a renewed dialogue and respect for traditional institutions, including religion. Irving Kristol became more ideological and more connected with the Republican Party in demanding that the religious right be featured prominently in America's fight to "redeem" itself. Less ideologically, John Diullio Jr. Became one of the most prominent figures of the bi-partisan push to establish greater coordination and collaboration with religious entities to help ameliorate some of the problems facing American citizens. Realizing that government workers did not always have the best prospects for helping a family than, for instance, their local church, Diulio and others pushed hard to make religious institutions less the enemy of the state and more of a partner. Diulio was not a religious fanatic, and often complained about staffers in the Bush administration who were more partisan and punitive to perceived enemies of the religious right, but he understood that with proper protections in place to stop religious groups from using federal dollars to convert people, these already-existing community institutions could help administer a number of social services. Though initially controversial despite the bi-partisan effort, the office survives to this day and was somewhat thriving in the Obama administration.

But neoconservatism soon became almost entirely associated with the Bush administration's foreign policy after 9/11, despite the protestations of Nathan Glazer (and later Francis Fukuyama).
 
True enough. I do think there were other forces at work besides Ghandi's independence front, however.

What forces in specific?

If you mean the Soviets...... Possible, I guess? India was friendly to the SovBloc since Pakistan was a US ally, but that was in the future at the time.....
 
The Iraq War, which needn't be discussed to any length, splintered the neoconservative ranks. Previous generations were more skeptical of government involvement, taught to respect, in the words of Robert K. Merton, the limits of purposive social action. The Iraq War to some of these individuals seemed like the Utopianism they railed against for decades. Nevertheless, with age and paled numbers in comparison to the neo-Reaganite neoconservatives, neoconservatism became known to the general public as the Bush administration's foreign policy.

In the aftermath of the W. Bush administration, neoconservatism seemed to flounder, with liberal and conservative critics alike announcing its death every several months and then fearing its renewal soon after. Neo-Reaganite neoconservatism remains, but perhaps significantly weakened in the wake of the Iraq war.

However, domestic policy once again came to the forefront. After the pioneering neoconservative journal "Public Interest" ended in the mid-200s, the call grew for a spiritual successor. A few years later, one was born. "National Affairs" sprung up and included many of the same faces, along with younger conservative writers and former Bush administration staffers. Though influenced by the Tea Party, it strove to renew calls for an energetic conservative orientation that shed itself of Reaganism after decades of orthodoxy. Many of the writers of National Affairs started to be proliferated among the Republican ranks, including Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, and Marco Rubio. Though perhaps more influenced by small government conservatism than Nathan Glazer would prefer (and, similarly, David Brooks), contributors to the journal sought to provide a challenge to the charge that conservatives and the Republican Partyhad merely become the party of "no" and the "stupid party." Calling themselves "reformicons" or "reformicons", they sought to help bring the Republican Party into the 21st century and the successor to the Obama administration.

With the loss of Walker, Rubio, Bush, Kasich, and the ascendency of Donald Trump, neoconservatism once again finds itself in uncomfortable waters, where for most of its life, it was anyway.
 
What forces in specific?

If you mean the Soviets...... Possible, I guess? India was friendly to the SovBloc since Pakistan was a US ally, but that was in the future at the time.....

I think it is very possible the Soviets influenced Indian independence.
 
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In summary:

1st Generation Domestic Policy Neoconservatives:
1) Truman-Kennedy-Johnson Democrats, pro-New Deal
1) Dislike of the student New Left
2) Strongly anti-communist
3) Mixed-to-negative views of the Great Society (many still liking most of it)
4) Concern of moral decline

1st Generation foreign policy neoconservatives:
1) Scoop Jackson Democrats
2) Followers of Albert Wohlstetter
3) Anti-communism, anti-Sovietism translated to hawkish foreign policy
4) Concern with moral defense of liberal democracies against socialism and communism.
5) Defense of right-wing authoritarian regimes due to necessity of holding the national interest (against communism, Soviets).

2nd Generation Foreign policy neoconservatism:
1) Indebted to Scoop Jackson Democrat heritage
2) Unipolar moment in geopolitics required muscular U.S. Leadership
3) U.S. Leadership based on U.S. Principles of defending western democratic ideals against despotism, when said power worked against U.S. Interest.
4) Nation-building, when regime serves the U.S. Interests

2nd Generation Domestic Policy Neoconservatism:
1) Holdovers from first generation domestic policy neoconservatives and their ideas
2) Fight against nihilism, postmodernism, multiculturalism found in the academy and public education
3) Ascendency to standard-bearers of GOP platform
4) Alliances with religious right to reclaim the Commons from decades of left-wing social and sexual revolutions


Third generation domestic policy neoconservatives (reformicons):
1) Bush administration and other conservatives
2) Post-Obama Republican alternative to domestic policy
3) Post-Reaganite conservative ideology, based on 21st century domestic policy problems.
4) Small government conservatism, mixed with government incentives and tax breaks to ameliorate growing crises in healthcare, education, child care, and so forth.
4) Preference for younger GOP candidates Paul Ryan, Scott Walker, and Rubio
 
There Sal, you made me write more on this forum than I have in years. It missed some other issues and complexities, but it was my best shot at clearing up some of the still poorly-explained history of neoconservatism found on the Internet.

Hope it was of some use, lengthy as it was.
 
Thank you for your effort.
Long story short.......are most neocons favorably disposed towards military interventionism?
Yes or no?

Given that their ranks soared during the neo-Reaganite years and the old dogs keep dying , yes.
But it would be a mistake to understand most its history in terms of foreign affairs.
 
Clinton is a Hawk. She'll grease the wheels of the war machine. Trump isn't even sure which side he's supposed to be on.
 
Given that their ranks soared during the neo-Reaganite years and the old dogs keep dying , yes.
But it would be a mistake to understand most its history in terms of foreign affairs.

Thanks for the history and thanks for the straight answer.
 
Trump- doesn't support iraq and called neoconservative hero Bush a liar, failure and blamed him for 9-11(a pivotal event in neocon history). He does seem more hawkish then clinton though.

Clinton. Voted for iraq. I think she also supported libya and syria.

Who you got neocons?

Neocons wanted someone like Jeb .. but that never worked out so presently they would support Hillary over Trump it seems.
 
I think it is very possible the Soviets influenced Indian independence.

How? And why?
I doubt Stalin cared one way or another about India, but I suppose he may have let a subordinate pursue a pet project. There would have been no advantage to the USSR except maybe the perceived embarassment to the British Empire'.
 
They'd have a pretty easy time of doing so as well..

I doubt it. Unless they were able to subvert influential Indians, and that seems unlikely.
India, for all it's diversity, is a pretty insular society. They've lived together so long, they know each other. Even today, it's a village population.
 
How? And why?
I doubt Stalin cared one way or another about India, but I suppose he may have let a subordinate pursue a pet project. There would have been no advantage to the USSR except maybe the perceived embarassment to the British Empire'.

Jabbing a finger in an adversary's eye is a time-honored technique.....just look at Putin.
If Trump wins, finger jabbing will reach new heights.
I can imagine Donald referring to world leaders he disagrees with as "losers"..."ugly"...."crooked".......
Good times!!!
 
I doubt it. Unless they were able to subvert influential Indians, and that seems unlikely.
India, for all it's diversity, is a pretty insular society. They've lived together so long, they know each other. Even today, it's a village population.

Well, they wouldn't have to control every village out in the boonies. But all the young, more educated city kids who had a better idea of the outside world.......

The Azad Hind was more then willing to work with the Japanese for independence, and Japanese agents had moderate success recruiting. If even Imperial Japan could do it.....
 
Trump- doesn't support iraq and called neoconservative hero Bush a liar, failure and blamed him for 9-11(a pivotal event in neocon history). He does seem more hawkish then clinton though.

Clinton. Voted for iraq. I think she also supported libya and syria.

Who you got neocons?

Umm, you forgot to include, Neither.
 
can you expand on this as I have no idea what you are saying

you appear to say the neocons did support Bush and wrote support articles but

other neocons neither supported nor understood the articles written by the neocon intellectuals

and then some people were ill informed

um

help me out here

There were Neocons in the Bush Administration.
The Neocons were an informal group of professionals and academics that participated in the discourse after the Soviet fell of what the consequences were and how the US response to these results should be. The members of the group were generally very well educated and had had a lot of experience. Many published quite a bit and took differentiating but not always the same views as others in the group.
The general public did not follow the discussions at all closely and had very simplistic ideas at best of the debate and differing opinions and groups held.
 
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Could you explain to me what a neocon is?

A neconservative is one of a group of former Marxists who switched to the conservative side in the 1970s. They were mostly Jewish, and Norman Podhoretz wrote the definitive book (literally) on the movement.

They are called "neoconservative" because they became "newly" conservative.

Generally, they favor big central government and muscular foreign policy.

The term "neocon" has come to mean, among those who don't know what it actually means, "really conservative," or, more accurately, "whatever I don't like about conservatives." It's also used as a dog whistle for "Jews." And some people use it interchangeably with "neo-Nazi."
 
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