Should somebody go to prison over this?

Paleocon said:

First, I should clarify that this is dependent on actual negligence having occurred, which from the article we don't have enough information to judge (through the local authorities certainly do).

Let me ask, assuming negligence to have occurred, would you object to prosecution if someone other than the father, say a handyman (the pertinent quality being someone uninvested emotionally in the situation), installed it?

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Correct, several things we do not know: Who built the pillar, who installed the hammock? The pillar may have already been there when the family bought the home, or they may have built it themselves or had someone do it. We do not know that. This is why I keep adding disclaimer that presume it's the father.

You will probably find my opinion unsatisfying and inconsistent, as you seem to prefer everything fit neatly into a box, but I would be fine with filing charges against a hired hand who built the pillar, provided the pillar was against city code. If there is no city code, or if it is to code, then no. I find the installing of the hammock to be irrelevant, as everything hangs on the pillar (no pun intended). The pillar should have had a proper foundation, if for no other reason to keep it from falling over in a string wind (which is common in this area).

ETA: Let me qualify something. If there is no code for the pillar, then a hired hand should be liable civilly, but not criminally.

If the jurisdiction has a statute covering general criminal negligence, then it should at least be considered because similar acts should be punished similarly. In such a case, I suspect the likely (and just) outcome would be to decline to prosecute, but it's hard to form a settled opinion.

It's hard to decide where to draw the line in cases like this. Exhausted parent forgets to drop sleeping infant/toddler off at daycare, and it dies from heat as it sits in the car all day. Prosecute? More seemingly culpable parent leaves infant/toddler in car so that they can go to a bar or casino. Prosecute? Fully aware parent does the same, but to buy groceries, and child still dies. Prosecute?

All are still accidents, though the circumstance vary in overall moral culpability (or maybe not, depending on one's opinion). Does it always make sense to treat it as an innocent accident when someone really should have known better, and because they were so reckless/negligent, caused someone's death?



Bear in mind, there are plenty of other contexts where negligent/reckless behavior causes death and is punished: manslaughter because you wrongfully punched someone in anger, but they slip, fall, hit their head, and die. Etc. This situation only differs in that the predicate act - a negligent act that does not arise to an independent criminal act - resulted in an unintended death. But then I note things like negligent vehicular homicide because you ran a red light and ran someone over, for example. I don't think running a red light is typically a criminal offense, it is a civil offense.

Paleocon said:

My position is that the law can't exempt people from punishment for otherwise punishable acts because they harmed themselves in the process.

I assume you agree with the general principle that negligent homicide should be punished.

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How is this an otherwise punishable act?

Accidents are not punishable.

justabubba said:

but that makes no sense
might as well prosecute the manufacturer of the brick used to (improperly) construct the pylon
makes as little sense

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you are right. The bricks should have been much lighter.

Maybe sue Issac Newton. If he hadn't invented, or discovered, gravity, this wouldn't have happened

predestination or accident but never a crime that should be punished.

Paleocon said:

Should any crime that causes emotional pain to the offender be left unprosecuted?



Red herring.



it is negligent, for the reasons which I explained, and you blatantly ignored.



A reasonable person setting up a hammock should ascertain the stability of the support, no?

We're not talking about something that couldn't have been ascertained very easily.

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Ascertained by say hopping into the hammock himself and testing it out? Which I am sure he did. Or does he need a degree in physics to ascertain the likelihood of collapse under every unforseen circumstance? He probably thought, "if it'll hold me it'll hold a tiny girl." How far should he have tested it? To the point of its collapse? Thus defeating his work of building the pillar and then adding the hammock. All I am saying is you have to go beyond a reasonable doubt, with evidence, to put someone in jail. That does not exist here.

Paleocon said:

Red herring.

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It's not irrelevant. Your perverted impulse to punish other people makes your judgment questionable in matters of criminal justice.

Korimyr the Rat said:

It's not irrelevant. Your perverted impulse to punish other people makes your judgment questionable in matters of criminal justice.

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Ad hominem.

Paleocon said:

A reasonable person setting up a hammock ought to make some effort to ascertain that the hammock's support is secure, no?

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You have no ability to call someone reasonable based on the things you have said on this forum in the past.

ajn678 said:

You have no ability to call someone reasonable based on the things you have said on this forum in the past.

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Ad hominem.

Paleocon said:

Ad hominem.

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It may be a fallacy to say that your argument is stupid because all of your arguments are stupid, but that doesn't make your argument any smarter. You're still just saying that someone should be punished because you get off on punishing people.

Paleocon said:

Ad hominem.

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Do you even know what that means? Or do you just throw it out when people call you on your ****?

radcen said:

Should somebody go to prison over this?

Is there blame to be assessed? Does somebody need to be punished for this?

- The young girl who died obviously can't pay any more of a higher price.

- How about the older sister? I've been reading about this and hearing about it on radio news, and there's been nothing to suggest she played a part other than simply laying in the hammock.

- The father? Presumably he built the pillar that was unreinforced and without a proper foundation, so... negligence? Should he be charged with something?

What say you?

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Sounds like negligence to me.

ajn678 said:

Do you even know what that means? Or do you just throw it out when people call you on your ****?

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He's using it correctly. Just because he has a track record of unreasonable statements does not mean every statement he makes is unreasonable-- and it is an ad hominem fallacy to claim that his statement is invalid merely because it came from him.

No jail or legal guilt. The dad built it and his child died. That should be the main thing here. If someone else's child died then maybe but punishing the dad when his own child died is ridiculous.

Paleocon said:

The person who set up the hammock should have ascertained the stability of the pillar. Their negligent failure to do so resulted in the death of another person. Consequently the builder of the hammock is guilty of negligent homicide.

I don't think they should go to prison, but jail should definitely be on the table.

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Yeah but the dad probably had oral sex with his wife so he really should be put to death... right?

radcen said:

Should somebody go to prison over this?

Is there blame to be assessed? Does somebody need to be punished for this?

- The young girl who died obviously can't pay any more of a higher price.

- How about the older sister? I've been reading about this and hearing about it on radio news, and there's been nothing to suggest she played a part other than simply laying in the hammock.

- The father? Presumably he built the pillar that was unreinforced and without a proper foundation, so... negligence? Should he be charged with something?

What say you?

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No of course not, there's no "negligence" that is evident in the OP . . . .
Is there MORE to the story that hasn't been presented?

Paleocon said:

A reasonable person setting up a hammock ought to make some effort to ascertain that the hammock's support is secure, no?

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I agree with you, but how many 13 yo girls fit into the "reasonable person" category. They are kids.

The hammock did support her when it was just her. It collapsed when an additional person jumped on it therefore increasing the stress forces 5 fold or more.

The single person hoists on our Navy helos had to be able to support 1,000 pounds, even though they were for one person. The reason being, one person bobbing up and down in the air can make stresses on the cable up to 5x their weight.

Who knows how much additional stress was placed on that hammock when another kid came flying through the air and landed on it with another kid already in it.

A freak and tragic accident that robbed us of yet another bright star in the sky that could have made a significant contribution to the world.

As a former home repairs small business owner, I cannot tell you how many times I have had to go over homeowner screw ups when they tackle jobs outside of their expertise. I would say that about 95% of homeowners have little or no knowledge of building codes on the local and national level.

Load bearing walls moved with no supports in place.

Reversed polarity in rewiring projects.

Joist clips missing on room additions.

Undersized dimensional lumber used over too long a span.

Sill plates not "allthreaded" into blocks and slabs correctly.

This homeowner "might" not have done his homework while constructing this pillar. ( improper base - footing - anchoring - bad mortar - etc.) Who really knows?

He left himself open for charges from the city if he did violate any building codes.

But, negligent homicide? ....... that would be a stretch unless some overzealous D.A. gets involved.

Compassion will play out here in some form or other if any charges are brought.

radcen said:

Should somebody go to prison over this?

Is there blame to be assessed? Does somebody need to be punished for this?

- The young girl who died obviously can't pay any more of a higher price.

- How about the older sister? I've been reading about this and hearing about it on radio news, and there's been nothing to suggest she played a part other than simply laying in the hammock.

- The father? Presumably he built the pillar that was unreinforced and without a proper foundation, so... negligence? Should he be charged with something?

What say you?

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It appears she jumped into the hammock.

Like just about anything... If used improperly..... You get bad results.

radcen said:

Should somebody go to prison over this?

Is there blame to be assessed? Does somebody need to be punished for this?

- The young girl who died obviously can't pay any more of a higher price.

- How about the older sister? I've been reading about this and hearing about it on radio news, and there's been nothing to suggest she played a part other than simply laying in the hammock.

- The father? Presumably he built the pillar that was unreinforced and without a proper foundation, so... negligence? Should he be charged with something?

What say you?

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It wasn't negligence, it was accidental.

Paleocon said:

If anyone is a t fault here, it'd be the builder of the hammock, not the pillar.

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True .. and tongue very much in cheek .. Where was the warning label stating that a lamp post should never be used to secure a hammock ??
And those people like Paleocon are a cause of this warning label silliness , and ever more stringent building codes .
And , is it now a crime to be human ?