Are you #NeverTrump?

WCH said:

Would you rather have Hillary as POTUS?

Hell Yes I'm about winning.

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Theres a difference between Hillary and Trump?

jimbo said:

CPwill retracted his statement.

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Just posting again in case you missed it.

Quag said:

Theres a difference between Hillary and Trump?

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One of them will wreck the Democrat Party. The other will wreck the Republican Party. But yes, both wreck their own party.

cpwill said:

Donald Trump is now seen unfavorably by around 63% of all Americans, after about 10 days of actual negative campaigning from opponents (when the Democrats and the Media finally pile on, who knows how high that will get). As he stands for a rejection of the principles that the Republican Party has traditionally embodied, conservatives are increasingly joining the #NeverTrump movement, which is made up of conservatives who state that they cannot and will not vote for Trump, should he be the GOP nominee. I am wondering how well this forum reflects the numbers out there.

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so is this to say that republicans believe a Trump's presidency, will be worst then a Hillary/Sanders presidency?

we know Trump is not part of the republican establishment which is why many in Washington do not like him and set out to stop him.

if i remember correctly, Mitch McConnell said he would work against Trump if he won the nomination

with confirms what i believe for a long time, what both parties are only the opposites sides of the same coin.

money and power are the key, and not about following and preserving the constitution.

money = who gets to work for the special interest that control our government.

power = who gets to appoint a judge to rule in their favor.

ahhhhh politics, the business of crooks, thief's, men who seek to embellish themselves while they steal and spend other people's money.

haymarket said:

I strongly suspect that there is less than a one percent chance Clinton will be indicted. So that prospect is more of a right wing wet dream than anything else.

Would you go third party?

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I might. But I also don't want my vote to put Clinton in the White House. I believe that she is an evil person (a very strong word, I know, but I mean it). I am just going to continue hoping that Trump is not the GOP nominee.

ernst barkmann said:

so is this to say that republicans believe a Trump's presidency, will be worst then a Hillary/Sanders presidency?

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Yes. The GOP will unite against Hillary's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will be able to make a case against it. The GOP will (at best) fracture against Trump's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will descend into a civil war, attacking and destroying itself as a movement. Hillary as POTUS means a conservative GOP sweep election in 2020. Trump as POTUS puts the conservative movement back by decades, and turns the GOP into a worse loser than it already is. Hillary at the head of a fractured Democrat caucus, whose base feels betrayed, enters the White House publicly disliked and deeply wounded. She isn't likely to suddenly become competent or incorruptible once she's there, meaning that her popularity (already upside down) will continue to bleed, taking down other Democrats with her. Trump produces the same effect, but more powerfully, and against Republicans. Furthermore, Democrats have gotten three decades worth of African American votes out of Nixon's "Southern Strategy" and supposed GOP Racism. Watching them lock up Hispanics in the same way would truly **** the GOP and the conservative movement for a generation.

cpwill said:

Yes. The GOP will unite against Hillary's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will be able to make a case against it. The GOP will (at best) fracture against Trump's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will descend into a civil war, attacking and destroying itself as a movement. Hillary as POTUS means a conservative GOP sweep election in 2020. Trump as POTUS puts the conservative movement back by decades, and turns the GOP into a worse loser than it already is. Hillary at the head of a fractured Democrat caucus, whose base feels betrayed, enters the White House publicly disliked and deeply wounded. She isn't likely to suddenly become competent or incorruptible once she's there, meaning that her popularity (already upside down) will continue to bleed, taking down other Democrats with her. Trump produces the same effect, but more powerfully, and against Republicans. Furthermore, Democrats have gotten three decades worth of African American votes out of Nixon's "Southern Strategy" and supposed GOP Racism. Watching them lock up Hispanics in the same way would truly **** the GOP and the conservative movement for a generation.

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i may not be happy with how Washington is run, but i am proud and happy of the fact i am not a party member, but simply a man who believes in the constitution and has allegiance to it and not moral men.

ernst barkmann said:

i may not be happy with how Washington is run, but i am proud and happy of the fact i am not a party member, but simply a man who believes in the constitution and has allegiance to it and not moral men.

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:shrug: then you should vote for the #NeverTrump position.

cpwill said:

:shrug: then you should vote for the #NeverTrump position.

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i have no position period for anyone, because no one will govern according to the constitition.

my point is that what people say of their party, and that other other party means nothing, politics is about money and power and not law and covering by it.

ModerateGOP said:

YES! If he did that and made better deals he could tout that experience. What's better? "I was being forced by investors to move my hat business to china, but I held strong and made better deals than they wanted, and now my hats are selling better than ever." or "Apple make your phones in America!!!!"

He does? He seems to be doing more ordering first rather than talking about policy changes. So he should put his wallet where his mouth is.

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let me see if i can make you understand this

probably not....but i will try

there is not a deal he could make right now, in these conditions, to bring a textile company back to america and make it profitable....it isnt possible

you cant compete with the labor prices in other places around the world....

unless we put tariffs on their goods coming in to make them more expensive....producing those types of goods here in the US will probably not happen in the foreseeable future

textiles are all about LABOR...and the cost of it

that is why Buffett shut his plants down, and others have moved theirs

cpwill said:

Donald Trump is now seen unfavorably by around 63% of all Americans, after about 10 days of actual negative campaigning from opponents (when the Democrats and the Media finally pile on, who knows how high that will get). As he stands for a rejection of the principles that the Republican Party has traditionally embodied, conservatives are increasingly joining the #NeverTrump movement, which is made up of conservatives who state that they cannot and will not vote for Trump, should he be the GOP nominee. I am wondering how well this forum reflects the numbers out there.

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I was #NeverTrump before there where hashtags. I have been #NeverTrump so long, I even supported Vince over Trump:

gdgyva said:

let me see if i can make you understand this

probably not....but i will try

there is not a deal he could make right now, in these conditions, to bring a textile company back to america and make it profitable....it isnt possible

you cant compete with the labor prices in other places around the world....

unless we put tariffs on their goods coming in to make them more expensive....producing those types of goods here in the US will probably not happen in the foreseeable future

textiles are all about LABOR...and the cost of it

that is why Buffett shut his plants down, and others have moved theirs

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What happens to Demand when Price skyrockets?

gdgyva said:

let me see if i can make you understand this

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I do understand what you are saying, but you are not hearing me. There are plenty of companies that stay proud and true to their slogans about making their products in America. Trump wants to "make America great again," but he doesn't even like to hire American workers to make his products or work in his hotels. It's one of his MANY hypocritical stances and I don't like waiting around for another dictator-in-chief before I see if his plans will results in the theory that they will make america great again. Trump's rhetoric matches the same style and substance as Obama's did.

cpwill said:

Yes. The GOP will unite against Hillary's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will be able to make a case against it. The GOP will (at best) fracture against Trump's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will descend into a civil war, attacking and destroying itself as a movement. Hillary as POTUS means a conservative GOP sweep election in 2020. Trump as POTUS puts the conservative movement back by decades, and turns the GOP into a worse loser than it already is. Hillary at the head of a fractured Democrat caucus, whose base feels betrayed, enters the White House publicly disliked and deeply wounded. She isn't likely to suddenly become competent or incorruptible once she's there, meaning that her popularity (already upside down) will continue to bleed, taking down other Democrats with her. Trump produces the same effect, but more powerfully, and against Republicans. Furthermore, Democrats have gotten three decades worth of African American votes out of Nixon's "Southern Strategy" and supposed GOP Racism. Watching them lock up Hispanics in the same way would truly **** the GOP and the conservative movement for a generation.

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they said the same damn thing 4 years ago after the second Obama election

just wait till next cycle....when we run a REAL conservative

so who do they throw to us? Bush....can you believe the stones these guys have

And then when the american public robustly denies them, and wont give Bush the time of day....now they parade anyone they can EXCEPT who the people are voting for

I liked Rubio....at first and voted for him a few weeks ago

But the public has spoken, and he is not their pick

And if you think Cruz can win the general, you are dreaming

Can trump win? i dunno....

I have seen stuff in the last six months i havent seen in 50 years....

the world of politics is on its head.....

But i would rather have 10 Trumps in office, than one Hillary

He is still a mystery....he could do anything

She isnt....i know exactly what she and her party want to do to my country

No thanks

cpwill said:

What happens to Demand when Price skyrockets?

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if you think there wont be pain....you are wrong

of course demand will falter....

the same pair of pants will climb from $ 30 to $ 50 overnight

but if we want JOBS here....that is what will have to happen

and yes, this will cause issues other places and possible trade wars

but they need us more than we need them as the saying goes

without the US as their customer....a lot of places go bust in a hurry

tariffs will be the answer to the dilemma....the question is do the american people have the balls to follow through on this?

because there will be pain....until the jobs come back online....and the prices flatten out

gdgyva said:

they said the same damn thing 4 years ago after the second Obama election

just wait till next cycle....when we run a REAL conservative

so who do they throw to us? Bush....can you believe the stones these guys have

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No one "threw" Bush anywhere, he ran his own campaign. We had multiple fantastic conservatives in this race: Walker, Perry, Rubio, Cruz, etc.

And it was an imminently winnable race. So long as we don't pick the greatest moron in this history of GOP presidential politics for the top of their ticket.

But the public has spoken, and he is not their pick

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The public has spoken and has come to no conclusion whatsoever. At our current rate,

And if you think Cruz can win the general, you are dreaming

Can trump win? i dunno....

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:lol: Cruz has about an even chance (he's currently up by about 1.5%), even assuming that there is no massive Hillary scandal, and that she doesn't spend the next few weeks alienating her base by going Full Nuclear on Bernie. Trump, on the other hand?






Worth noting: those bad figures for Trump are before he started getting negative campaigning from opposition.

But i would rather have 10 Trumps in office, than one Hillary

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The conservative movement can survive and even grow and thrive in opposition to Hillary. They cannot do so in opposition to Trump. If you care about achieving conservative policy goals and the conservative movement, then Trump is the worst candidate running. Both are dark tunnels, but at least there is light at the end of a Hillary administration.

gdgyva said:

if you think there wont be pain....you are wrong

of course demand will falter....

the same pair of pants will climb from $ 30 to $ 50 overnight

but if we want JOBS here....that is what will have to happen

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:lol: yeah. They tried that in 1930. How'd it work out?

1. We also export a lot of stuff. Woops, those industries are crashed.
2. We also have a lot of industries that are dependent on a global supply chain. Woops, those industries are crashed.
3. As prices rise, we can afford to buy much less, so standards of living plummet even while falling demand means that there is no new jobs, and many more unemployed.

But hey. Maybe we'll get a hat factory so we can have an American robot replace Indonesian workers, and then charge $15 a hat. That's an awesome silver lining.

Oh. You thought that those manufacturing jobs were all going to come back and hire American people???

:lol: welcome to the 21st Century.

And yes, this will cause issues other places and possible trade wars

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Defined as wars that governments wage against their own people.

but they need us more than we need them as the saying goes

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:shrug: maybe. US Consumption is scheduled to peter down because of our overleveraging anyway. But a plan where we shoot ourselves in the leg in order to shoot them in the gut is still a very, very, very stupid plan.

without the US as their customer....a lot of places go bust in a hurry

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tariffs will be the answer to the dilemma....the question is do the american people have the balls to follow through on this?

because there will be pain....until the jobs come back online....and the prices flatten out[/QUOTE]

Tarrifs are a disastrously stupid idea, and that they are being seriously entertained by our body politic is a severe mark against our public education system.

cpwill said:

I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but it has happened under Obama. We had a conservative sweep into the party and took it over. The GOP now is more conservative than it has ever been, and more dominant across this nation than it has ever been. We have a stronger position in the Congress than we have had in almost a century. Under Obama, the Democrats have lost 12 Governors (we now have 31), 69 House Seats, 13 Senate Seats, and over 900 State Seats to a GOP being fueled by the Tea Party. All we needed for the Hat Trick was an incredibly easily winnable White House race against a deeply wounded Hillary Clinton, and we managed to **** that up with a Liberal Authoritarian whose policy preferences are generally indistinguishable from hers, but whose abusive nature means that he suffers from significantly deeper unpopularity.

We could have been where the Democrats were in 2009. Instead, we're going to be back to where the Republicans were in 2009, except without a resurgent conservative movement to breathe life back into us.

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What has been accomplished with all that power?

Nothing is the answer. No push back against Obama at all.

I see the GOP in 2009 as I see them now...wanting back in power only to side with every Leftist idea that comes down the pike.

There needs to be change NOW.

I am currently unfavorable of Trump, but if he gives me a supply of steak, I shall have a favorable view of him. :mrgreen:

Quag said:

Theres a difference between Hillary and Trump?

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One has works inside the Globalist economy and the other works for it.

cpwill said:

:lol: yeah. They tried that in 1930. How'd it work out?

1. We also export a lot of stuff. Woops, those industries are crashed.
2. We also have a lot of industries that are dependent on a global supply chain. Woops, those industries are crashed.
3. As prices rise, we can afford to buy much less, so standards of living plummet even while falling demand means that there is no new jobs, and many more unemployed.

But hey. Maybe we'll get a hat factory so we can have an American robot replace Indonesian workers, and then charge $15 a hat. That's an awesome silver lining.

Oh. You thought that those manufacturing jobs were all going to come back and hire American people???

:lol: welcome to the 21st Century.



Defined as wars that governments wage against their own people.



:shrug: maybe. US Consumption is scheduled to peter down because of our overleveraging anyway. But a plan where we shoot ourselves in the leg in order to shoot them in the gut is still a very, very, very stupid plan.



tariffs will be the answer to the dilemma....the question is do the american people have the balls to follow through on this?

because there will be pain....until the jobs come back online....and the prices flatten out

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Tarrifs are a disastrously stupid idea, and that they are being seriously entertained by our body politic is a severe mark against our public education system.[/QUOTE]

main exports of US

Machines, engines, pumps: US$205.8 billion (13.7% of total exports)
Electronic equipment: $169.8 billion (11.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $131.1 billion (8.7%)
Vehicles: $127.1 billion (8.4%)
Oil: $106.1 billion (7.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $83.4 billion (5.5%)
Plastics: $60.3 billion (4%)
Gems, precious metals, coins: $58.7 billion (3.9%)
Pharmaceuticals: $47.3 billion (3.1%)
Organic chemicals: $38.8 billion (2.6%)
and FOOD....

United States Top 10 Exports

now will other countries stop buying industrial machinery? cranes, plane engines, track vehicles, etc
will boeing suddenly lose every contract to airbus?
will mcdonnell douglas not sell defense equipment?
will proctor & gamble not sell paper supplies?
how about a big one....will other countries no longer buy LIFE SAVING DRUGS?

just what will we stop selling?

or how about all the wheat, corn, and food we sell around the planet to feed people....will they no longer want to eat?

i think you need to readjust your thinking maybe a little....things may not be all wine and roses for us....but we CAN get some of the jobs back here....

i want to see the day that the world isnt in line to buy to NEXT apple ipad or iphone....

those are our exports.....tell me....what is it that we wont be selling

i realize we will lose some sales.....just nowhere near what i think you are thinking

gdgyva said:

main exports of US

Machines, engines, pumps: US$205.8 billion (13.7% of total exports)
Electronic equipment: $169.8 billion (11.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $131.1 billion (8.7%)
Vehicles: $127.1 billion (8.4%)
Oil: $106.1 billion (7.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $83.4 billion (5.5%)
Plastics: $60.3 billion (4%)
Gems, precious metals, coins: $58.7 billion (3.9%)
Pharmaceuticals: $47.3 billion (3.1%)
Organic chemicals: $38.8 billion (2.6%)
and FOOD....

United States Top 10 Exports

now will other countries stop buying industrial machinery? cranes, plane engines, track vehicles, etc
will boeing suddenly lose every contract to airbus?
will mcdonnell douglas not sell defense equipment?
will proctor & gamble not sell paper supplies?
how about a big one....will other countries no longer buy LIFE SAVING DRUGS?

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In short, roughly, yes. Because they can simply take the intellectual property of how the drugs work once they are in a trade war with us, and other industries provide those goods at a quality and cost that will be able to beat ours plus the cost of retaliatory tariffs. Would you pay 35% more for a good than it was worth, if you could get a comparable or the same good from a different store? Neither will our customers overseas.

just what will we stop selling?

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That which we export, and that which we did import, but which is now much more expensive.

or how about all the wheat, corn, and food we sell around the planet to feed people....will they no longer want to eat?

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That's an interesting claim. I had no idea that there weren't agricultural sectors abroad.

i think you need to readjust your thinking maybe a little....things may not be all wine and roses for us....but we CAN get some of the jobs back here....

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Maybe. At a cost of many more jobs and a reduced standard of living for the entire populace, especially hitting the low-income. Great Idea, Greg.

And the jobs we bring back? Will be ****ty ones. Why in the world would I want to take a guy currently making airplanes for boeing, and turn him into someone who makes t-shirts for 2/3rds the pay?

Arguing that What America Needs is Low Skill Low Pay Manufacturing Jobs so that we can be rich and powerful like we were back in the 1950s is like arguing that What America Really Needs is for Everyone To Go Back To Being Subsistence Farmers, so that we can grow like we did back in the late 18th and 19th century :roll:

i realize we will lose some sales.....just nowhere near what i think you are thinking

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Yeah. They pitched that in 1930 too.

WCH said:

What has been accomplished with all that power?

Nothing is the answer. No push back against Obama at all.

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:raises eyebrow:

1. I agree that the Senate could have done a better job (though I am glad that they are holding the line on SCOTUS), but you are flatly incorrect. The House in particular has done an excellent job of outlining conservative policy alternatives.

2. The answer to liberal authoritarianism being difficult to beat is not to double down on liberal authoritarianism by electing another liberal authoritarian.

I see the GOP in 2009 as I see them now...wanting back in power only to side with every Leftist idea that comes down the pike.

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:lol: check with democrats who have spent the last few years bitching about Congress putting a break on their shifting the country leftward for that.

Our Constitution is designed to stop changes. You have to have the congress and the white house to get changes through. If they are divided, then they act on a check against each other. You can't push conservative policy changes through with just the Congress, and you can't push conservative policy changes through with just the White House (and have it stand up to legal review). You have to have both. When you have divided government, you get status quo, which is what we have now, where both sides check each other. Conservatives understand and appreciate that system, because it is designed to halt dramatic changes. Democrats had both branches in 2009, and they used that to jerk us hard left. We elected Republicans to stop that shift, and it largely worked. Now, we have a chance to gain both branches to jerk it back right, but instead of doing that, Republican voters are choosing to destroy their own prospects so that they can have a chance to bitch about the fact that they don't understand our Constitutional system, and the limits it places on both branches.

Could the Senate have done more? Absolutely. I am angry that they tried to tamp down on primaries, I am angry that they didn't chop up the most unpopular pieces of Obamacare, and force Democrats to vote to protect them again and again, and force Obama to veto getting rid of them again and again. Could they have achieved more? Not with this President, whose signature is required. Talk radio land doesn't seem to understand that gap.

There needs to be change NOW.

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Don't forget HOPE. It goes in front of CHANGE and NOW. Perhaps Trump fans could start telling themselves that They Are The Ones They've Been Waiting For :roll:


Change for it's own sake is stupid and destructive. We need to start putting Conservative ideals into policy. Unfortunately, we aren't going to do that, because the leader of our race at current isn't a conservative. You don't fix the damage done by doubling down on it, especially when doing so wrecks your ability to correct course in the future. The main silver lining is that he's exceedingly likely to lose the race to Hillary Clinton, against whom Trump is currently losing by 13 points.

cpwill said:

Yes. The GOP will unite against Hillary's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will be able to make a case against it. The GOP will (at best) fracture against Trump's abuses and liberalism, and conservatism will descend into a civil war, attacking and destroying itself as a movement. Hillary as POTUS means a conservative GOP sweep election in 2020. Trump as POTUS puts the conservative movement back by decades, and turns the GOP into a worse loser than it already is. Hillary at the head of a fractured Democrat caucus, whose base feels betrayed, enters the White House publicly disliked and deeply wounded. She isn't likely to suddenly become competent or incorruptible once she's there, meaning that her popularity (already upside down) will continue to bleed, taking down other Democrats with her. Trump produces the same effect, but more powerfully, and against Republicans. Furthermore, Democrats have gotten three decades worth of African American votes out of Nixon's "Southern Strategy" and supposed GOP Racism. Watching them lock up Hispanics in the same way would truly **** the GOP and the conservative movement for a generation.

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Just a couple thing cpwill. First, your hyperbole is a little over the top. Trump is probably hurting the republican brand, and Trump as the nominee would hurt republicans, and Trump as president probably would be far from ideal for most any one. But it just is not that end of the world, fire and brimstone and you are trying to portray it. This **** evens out in fairly short order. Hell, in the last decade, both the republican and democratic parties have been declared dead, and both turned out to be stupid claims. I understand this is really important to you, and your party is going through hard times, but it helps your point to tone it down. Don't exaggerate and fall into hyperbole.

Second: Part of the reason why the vast majority of black people do not vote for republicans is perfectly illustrated by your comments. If republicans gave black people credit for voting on the issues important to them(Hint: for most it is not race that is the most important issue, but jobs and the economy), for being more than people with their hands out for free stuff, maybe you guys could attract more black people to vote for your guys. I am not saying you or republicans are racist, only that the way you talk about black people at times really makes it hard for black people to consider voting republican.

I'm a NeverTrump who is also a NeverCruz.