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Abolish property tax?

Do you support the proposal described in the post?


  • Total voters
    56
Indeed we have. Which of those taxes would be increased to cover property taxes?

Well, let me start by saying

1. this is a local decision and I think that non-local governments have no business making it for them.

however

2. I think that it is wise policy to shift from taxing property, income, and investment to consumption, but I think that that tax should also be transparent, rather than hidden like the VATs. If we are going to tax someone, we need to tell them upfront. So I could see supporting a variety of consumption taxes as a good option to replace property tax.
 
Well, let me start by saying

1. this is a local decision and I think that non-local governments have no business making it for them.

however

2. I think that it is wise policy to shift from taxing property, income, and investment to consumption, but I think that that tax should also be transparent, rather than hidden like the VATs. If we are going to tax someone, we need to tell them upfront. So I could see supporting a variety of consumption taxes as a good option to replace property tax.

What percentage do you think would cover those taxes?
 
What percentage do you think would cover those taxes?
...I think that would be completely dependent on the locality?

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Property tax is essentially paying "rent" to the state to keep your own property. Furthermore, the money is used for totally unrelated purposes like public education, which should instead be funded by user fees paid by those who use the schools.

They wouldn't be public schools then, they'd be the same as private schools.
One of the main points of public schools is to provide education for people who wouldn't be able to afford it otherwise.
 
You guys realize we need tax revenue for our society to function, correct? Our government, just like business uses revenue generated to invest back into society.

That's funny. If the government were to "invest" they'd do it with Bernie Madoff or Bill Clinton and lose everything. The government doesn't generate revenue providing goods or services. They take it by force. Some consumers of government goods and services pay nothing and others pay for more than they consume.

The only two "businesses" that can be compared the government would be unions and organized crime that isn't a union.
 
You guys realize we need tax revenue for our society to function, correct? Our government, just like business uses revenue generated to invest back into society.

Don't confuse 'em.
 
...I think that would be completely dependent on the locality?

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Could you give me an idea of what you would suggest for your own location?
 
Could you give me an idea of what you would suggest for your own location?

Well, my location is federal land, and so I pay no property taxes - so I would see no tax benefit, but see the taxes for the things I buy in the surrounding area go up.

The area around my location has a property tax of about 0.675%. So, whatever would be necessary to replace that. :shrug:
 
Well, my location is federal land, and so I pay no property taxes - so I would see no tax benefit, but see the taxes for the things I buy in the surrounding area go up.

The area around my location has a property tax of about 0.675%. So, whatever would be necessary to replace that. :shrug:

That's per $1000 of property value? So what is the median price of a home in that area? Also, what is the average wage?
 
I already answered that in the original post: by replacing the property tax with income tax and sales tax.

so, you are still taxed for services, just by another government entity...what do you gain?
 
That's per $1000 of property value?

It's of "real property", so, apparently mobile homes are excluded.

So what is the median price of a home in that area? Also, what is the average wage?

Hm. Well, military town, so it's a bit skewed - our lowest income earners live in the barracks. I'd "guesstimate" (with no research) "175,000" and "45,000".


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Please forgive my tardiness. I just found this thread - indeed, this entire forum - via a link in an online article I was reading. Having read a few of the early responses, I decided to weigh in, even though the last response was a year and a half ago.

I voted "No" on the proposition, mainly because of the proposal of "replacing it with income tax and sales tax." As another, early responder stated, "what have you gained" by trading one tax for another?

As any libertarian will tell you, "taxation is theft." It matters not whether the person taking your money under threat of violence is a thug in a dark alley, or a thug in a government-issued costume with a government-issued shiny badge, taking your money against your will is theft. If the thug in the dark alley assures you that he is going to use the money to improve the lives of others, it's still theft. As William Pitt said, "necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

I also object strongly to the part of the proposal that suggests limiting the amount of land one may own. As I point out frequently in other fora, you either believe in freedom, or you don't. If you believe in freedom, then how can you propose limiting how much property a person is "allowed" to own?

As to the various responses regarding how government would provide "services," and support infrastructure without taxes, I can only point out that, according to Thomas Jefferson, and all the Founders who signed their names agreeing with him, those are not the proper functions of government. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..." The purpose of government is to protect individual rights. Individual rights; not the "rights" of the collective.

Infrastructure can and will be provided and supported by private enterprise if it is needed and desired by the People. An early responder asserted,
You guys realize we need tax revenue for our society to function, correct?
I absolutely disagree. Neither "our" society, nor any other, requires the forced taking of private property in order to function. Society will function much more smoothly if some people in the society are not living off the takings from others in the society.

That responder continued,
Our government, just like business uses revenue generated to invest back into society.
Businesses use revenue generated by voluntary exchange. If a business does not provide a product or service that people are willing to trade for voluntarily, then that business will generate insufficient revenue, and go out of business. Government uses revenue generated by coercion and theft. (And, as such, is open to misuse by those who gain access to that revenue. But that's another issue.) If government doesn't provide goods and services that people want badly enough to be willing to trade for voluntarily, it still generates whatever revenue it desires, and the People are poorer for it. (As Ernie Hancock says, "I want fire department government, not police department government." Take a moment to think about the differences in how the fire department and the police department provide their "services," and you'll understand what he means.)

To those of you who cling to government as the answer, and provider of solutions, to the problems of "society," I say, come away from the Dark Side. Embrace freedom and voluntary exchange. It's a bit scary; there's no Mommy Government to take care of everything when something bad happens. But in the long run, we will all be better off.
 
Please forgive my tardiness. I just found this thread - indeed, this entire forum - via a link in an online article I was reading. Having read a few of the early responses, I decided to weigh in, even though the last response was a year and a half ago.

I voted "No" on the proposition, mainly because of the proposal of "replacing it with income tax and sales tax." As another, early responder stated, "what have you gained" by trading one tax for another?

As any libertarian will tell you, "taxation is theft." It matters not whether the person taking your money under threat of violence is a thug in a dark alley, or a thug in a government-issued costume with a government-issued shiny badge, taking your money against your will is theft. If the thug in the dark alley assures you that he is going to use the money to improve the lives of others, it's still theft. As William Pitt said, "necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

I also object strongly to the part of the proposal that suggests limiting the amount of land one may own. As I point out frequently in other fora, you either believe in freedom, or you don't. If you believe in freedom, then how can you propose limiting how much property a person is "allowed" to own?

As to the various responses regarding how government would provide "services," and support infrastructure without taxes, I can only point out that, according to Thomas Jefferson, and all the Founders who signed their names agreeing with him, those are not the proper functions of government. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..." The purpose of government is to protect individual rights. Individual rights; not the "rights" of the collective.

Infrastructure can and will be provided and supported by private enterprise if it is needed and desired by the People. An early responder asserted, I absolutely disagree. Neither "our" society, nor any other, requires the forced taking of private property in order to function. Society will function much more smoothly if some people in the society are not living off the takings from others in the society.

That responder continued, Businesses use revenue generated by voluntary exchange. If a business does not provide a product or service that people are willing to trade for voluntarily, then that business will generate insufficient revenue, and go out of business. Government uses revenue generated by coercion and theft. (And, as such, is open to misuse by those who gain access to that revenue. But that's another issue.) If government doesn't provide goods and services that people want badly enough to be willing to trade for voluntarily, it still generates whatever revenue it desires, and the People are poorer for it. (As Ernie Hancock says, "I want fire department government, not police department government." Take a moment to think about the differences in how the fire department and the police department provide their "services," and you'll understand what he means.)

To those of you who cling to government as the answer, and provider of solutions, to the problems of "society," I say, come away from the Dark Side. Embrace freedom and voluntary exchange. It's a bit scary; there's no Mommy Government to take care of everything when something bad happens. But in the long run, we will all be better off.

Interesting that you should bring this up now because California is currently in the process of doing away with property taxes and having it's property owners make (I guess mandatory) charitable contributions to the state instead, in order to skate around the Republican's new tax cut law which caps the federal deduction of property taxes, which hurts these high tax states. How do you feel about that?
 
How do you propose to fund local infrastructure, police/fire and other expenses of running a city if property taxes were eliminated?

But if we eliminated property taxes that would take away some people's arguments that only taxpayers should be allowed to vote. ;) :2razz:
 
Interesting that you should bring this up now because California is currently in the process of doing away with property taxes and having it's property owners make (I guess mandatory) charitable contributions to the state instead, in order to skate around the Republican's new tax cut law which caps the federal deduction of property taxes, which hurts these high tax states. How do you feel about that?

I'm not surprised, and I don't really care much what California does. Or any other state than my own, frankly. If the people there put up with it, then they deserve it.
 
But if we eliminated property taxes that would take away some people's arguments that only taxpayers should be allowed to vote. ;) :2razz:

Personally, I think that net tax consumers should not be allowed to vote. They have a vested interest in increasing the size of government. At the beginning of our country, only property owners were allowed to vote, the reasoning being that they had "skin in the game," and were demonstrably sharp enough to have acquired ownership of something. I don't find that unreasonable.
 
Income tax should stay, property tax not so much.
 
I have always favored getting rid of the property tax and having a far more graduated income tax for everyone who earns dollar one on up.
 
So the government has first claim on the fruits of your labor? How is this different from slavery?

Well for one you can leave anytime you want to and nobody is forcing you to stay here.
 
a right which is respected by all animal species other than humans (e.g. birds do not pay
property tax on their nests; rodents and rabbits do not pay property tax on their burrows, etc.).

This may be the stupidest argument I've ever seen.
 
Well for one you can leave anytime you want to and nobody is forcing you to stay here.

Thanks, but I'd prefer to live in the country that was intended to be the most free nation on Earth. And I'd like to see it return to that.
 
Thanks, but I'd prefer to live in the country that was intended to be the most free nation on Earth. And I'd like to see it return to that.

That would be your decision made with full knowledge of what you are accepting and agreeing to when you decide to stay here and not leave.

You asked a question - I was happy to answer it.
 
I have always favored getting rid of the property tax and having a far more graduated income tax for everyone who earns dollar one on up.

One tax or fee no more. A tax rate of less than a percent of all transactions. Tax the FLOW of money, not the pool. The tax is naturally "progressive" and inherently fair. The cost to avoid it is more than the cost to pay it so it gets paid "voluntarily". It is also cheap to implement because it already is essentially done so now, by private firms and the cost to enforce is much cheaper because there are far fewer points of collection to manage. The point of taxes should be to produce as much money for the government as efficiently as possible and as least burdensome on the taxpayer as possible.
 
How do you propose to fund local infrastructure, police/fire and other expenses of running a city if property taxes were eliminated?

Transaction tax.
 
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