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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Honestly, he either wanted war or he was an idiot.

Toss up there. Most northern states didn't want war to begin with. Granddaddy always said that Lincoln's secretary of war Edwin Stanton was the one who was really pushing for the war, that Lincoln was reluctant.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No offense, but you sound like you're trolling me. No thanks, I'll refrain from responding to you.

I'm not trolling you. Despite myself, I'm fascinated ( with horror) how easily some people's minds are warped to serve anothers agenda. I'm not insulting you with that, it's just really hard for me to understand.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The south wanted war - long before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

They had been plotting and planning it for years.

No we wanted to leave, as per our right. The North was gonna let us, since they didn't want war to begin with. Until they realized that if we did leave they were in big trouble.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The south wanted war - long before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

They had been plotting and planning it for years.

Dreaming of it you mean? There's a massive difference. If they had have been plotting wouldn't they have built a foundry or two?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The south wanted war - long before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

They had been plotting and planning it for years.

Proof?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Let's go back a few more years, to the the presidential race of 1856. The first time ever a Republican was on the ballot: John C. Fremont. Slavery was a Yoooooge issue. All consuming.

Fremont was against the expansion of slavery, and of course was despised in the South.

Here is a campaign ribbon from 1856:

fremont-rib-1.jpg


Here is an 1856 anti-Fremont ribbon:
heritage0615-5.jpg

Heh. What do you think they were trying to impress there?

The South threatened at that time, if an anti-slavery President was elected - it would mean Civil War and "the Conservative South (soon) will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

Bold Avowals--The Election of Buchanan to be a Stop Towards Disunion. - Article - NYTimes.com | 1856

<snip>

"The great object of the South in supporting Buchanan is to promote and extend the perpetuation of the "Conservative institution of Slavery." And the votes by which it is hoped he may be elected, are to become the basis of a secession movement and the formation of a Southern Slave Confederacy...

1856FacetheFuture2.jpg


Now, how's this for traitorous:

As the 1856 election drew near, a convention of Governors of the Southern slave states was secretly held at Raleigh, North Carolina. Jefferson Davis -- then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce, was full aware of this.

The object was to devise a scheme of rebellion at that time, in the event of the election of Colonel John C. Fremont, the Republican candidate for the Presidency.

Henry Wise, Governor of Virginia at the time
...afterward boasted that, had Fremont been elected, he should have marched, at the head of twenty thousand men, to Washington, taken possession of the Capitol, and prevented the inauguration of the President elect.

Pictorial history of the Civil War in the United States of America
- Lossing, 1866

Well, as we know, Buchanan was elected, and that staved off the fury for a few more years.

And get this: James Mason of Virginia, who was the leading Senator, wrote to US Sec. of War, Jeff Davis, later Confederate President, directly requesting him to arm the Southern states for war against the US -- a four full years before -- in any event a Republican would become President.

This was the letter

"I have a letter from WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear.

He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."​

Had Fremont been elected, the date of the start of the Civil War would have likely been 1856.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I'm not trolling you. Despite myself, I'm fascinated ( with horror) how easily some people's minds are warped to serve anothers agenda. I'm not insulting you with that, it's just really hard for me to understand.

Perhaps these lyrics from a song in South Pacific say it best:

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I'm tired of posting this, and HorseGirl will not read it, because she scrolls over anything that does not fit into her bubble,

but...

for those who might be interested:
The direct question, when posed, was answered when NY was considering it's ratification of the Constitution. At that time it was proposed:

"there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

A vote was taken, and it was negatived.


Elliot’s Debates: Volume 2 | Teaching American History

Historian Amar goes on to explain the pivotal moment of agreement:

"But exactly how were these states united? Did a state that said yes in the 1780's retain the right to unilaterally say no later on, and thereby secede? If not, why not?

Once again, it was in New York that the answer emerged most emphatically. At the outset of the Poughkeepsie convention, anti-Federalists held a strong majority. The tide turned when word arrived that New Hampshire and Virginia had said yes to the Constitution, at which point anti-Federalists proposed a compromise: they would vote to ratify, but if the new federal government failed to embrace various reforms that they favored, "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

At the risk of alienating swing voters and losing on the ultimate ratification vote, Federalists emphatically opposed the compromise.

In doing so, they made clear to everyone - in New York and in the 12 other states where people were following the New York contest with interest - that the Constitution did not permit unilateral state secession.

Alexander Hamilton read aloud a letter at the Poughkeepsie convention that he had received from James Madison stating that "the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever."

Hamilton and John Jay then added their own words, which the New York press promptly reprinted: "a reservation of a right to withdraw" was "inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification."

Thus, it was New York where the document became an irresistible reality and where its central meaning - one nation, democratic and indivisible - emerged with crystal clarity."

Conventional Wisdom--A Commentary by Prof. Akhil Amar Yale Law School

Yes. "In toto and forever."

Keep posting because others will still read it. I wouldn't have known that Robert E. Lee said the country was intended to be a "perpetual union" if you, or I think it was you, hadn't posted it. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're efforts are not in vain. :)
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Let's go back a few more years, to the the presidential race of 1856. The first time ever a Republican was on the ballot: John C. Fremont. Slavery was a Yoooooge issue. All consuming.

Fremont was against the expansion of slavery, and of course was despised in the South.

Here is a campaign ribbon from 1856:

fremont-rib-1.jpg


Here is an 1856 anti-Fremont ribbon:
heritage0615-5.jpg

Heh. What do you think they were trying to impress there?

The South threatened at that time, if an anti-slavery President was elected - it would mean Civil War and "the Conservative South (soon) will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

Bold Avowals--The Election of Buchanan to be a Stop Towards Disunion. - Article - NYTimes.com | 1856

<snip>

"The great object of the South in supporting Buchanan is to promote and extend the perpetuation of the "Conservative institution of Slavery." And the votes by which it is hoped he may be elected, are to become the basis of a secession movement and the formation of a Southern Slave Confederacy...

1856FacetheFuture2.jpg


Now, how's this for traitorous:

As the 1856 election drew near, a convention of Governors of the Southern slave states was secretly held at Raleigh, North Carolina. Jefferson Davis -- then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce, was full aware of this.



Henry Wise, Governor of Virginia at the time
Pictorial history of the Civil War in the United States of America
- Lossing, 1866

Well, as we know, Buchanan was elected, and that staved off the fury for a few more years.

And get this: James Mason of Virginia, who was the leading Senator, wrote to US Sec. of War, Jeff Davis, later Confederate President, directly requesting him to arm the Southern states for war against the US -- a four full years before -- in any event a Republican would become President.

This was the letter

"I have a letter from WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear.

He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."​

Had Fremont been elected, the date of the start of the Civil War would have likely been 1856.

Maybe Fremont would not have been bullied into war since Lincoln likely was.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Perhaps these lyrics from a song in South Pacific say it best:

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Well I'm certainly learning to hate and fear over the past few years. It's not my parents doing the teaching though.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Keep posting because others will still read it. I wouldn't have known that Robert E. Lee said the country was intended to be a "perpetual union" if you, or I think it was you, hadn't posted it. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're efforts are not in vain. :)

Caution: Parrots repeat, they do not discern.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

:lol: You just keep getting better and better. Did you just fall out of 1861? Time travel, maybe?

So, by saying this...

You agree it is prudent in a time of war/rebellion to burn the civilian populations homes, steal their food and belongings, murder and rape their women and children???



You disgust me.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Keep posting because others will still read it. I wouldn't have known that Robert E. Lee said the country was intended to be a "perpetual union" if you, or I think it was you, hadn't posted it. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're efforts are not in vain. :)

So in other words you told him to be a parrot. Gotcha
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So, by saying this...

You agree it is prudent in a time of war/rebellion to burn the civilian populations homes, steal their food and belongings, murder and rape their women and children???



You disgust me.

Seriously! The way some of these people talk I'm surprised we don't have a state of sherman. UGH
 
Re: Confederate Flag

More? October 1856: LOOK THE FUTURE IN THE FACE

-- New York Times, quoting a Richmond, VA paper

...where future secessionists threaten war and the evil of "Black Republicanism" (their term for those with Abolitionist sentiments) are castigated, and they predict, nay - taunt, the coming bloodbath.


1856NYT.jpg

It begins:

"The Southern political Press has never been more open and frank in its avowal of political purposes and plans, than it is during the present canvass.

The triumphs of Slavery during the past four years,--the successful repeal of the Missouri Compromise, a measure for which oven Mr. CALHOUN never dared to hope,--
and the ready, eager promptitude with which the Democratic party at Cincinnati yielded to the exactions of the Slaveholding power, seemed to have inspired the political leaders of the South with the belief, that time has come when they can safely and even with advantage to themselves, make open proclamation of the projects they have in store for the future.

....We invite attention to the following lead editorial from Richmond (
the NY Times here quotes from the Southern paper) where Southerners state: "'Tis treason to cry "Peace!" "peace!" when there is no peace. There is, there can be, no peace, no lasting union between the south and Black Republicanism."
And they go on:
Forewarned...Forearmed!" We see the numbers, the characters, the designs of our enemies/ Let us prepare to resist them and drive them back

....A common danger from without, and a common necessity (Slavery) within, will be sure to make the South a great, a united, a vigilant and a warlike people."

..
1856_zpsc246abd4.jpg


",...the division is sure to take place...Socialism, communism, infidelity, licentiousness and agrarianism, now scarcely suppressed by Union with the conservative South will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So in other words you told him to be a parrot. Gotcha

Says the little lady who parrots her granddaddy. I told her I liked her posts because she posts historical documented facts from the war period itself.....and not some romanticized version told to an eight year old by a granddaddy who wasn't even there.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

More? October 1856: LOOK THE FUTURE IN THE FACE

-- New York Times, quoting a Richmond, VA paper

...where future secessionists threaten war and the evil of "Black Republicanism" (their term for those with Abolitionist sentiments) are castigated, and they predict, nay - taunt, the coming bloodbath.


1856NYT.jpg

It begins:

"The Southern political Press has never been more open and frank in its avowal of political purposes and plans, than it is during the present canvass.

The triumphs of Slavery during the past four years,--the successful repeal of the Missouri Compromise, a measure for which oven Mr. CALHOUN never dared to hope,--
and the ready, eager promptitude with which the Democratic party at Cincinnati yielded to the exactions of the Slaveholding power, seemed to have inspired the political leaders of the South with the belief, that time has come when they can safely and even with advantage to themselves, make open proclamation of the projects they have in store for the future.

....We invite attention to the following lead editorial from Richmond (
the NY Times here quotes from the Southern paper) where Southerners state: "'Tis treason to cry "Peace!" "peace!" when there is no peace. There is, there can be, no peace, no lasting union between the south and Black Republicanism."
And they go on:
Forewarned...Forearmed!" We see the numbers, the characters, the designs of our enemies/ Let us prepare to resist them and drive them back

....A common danger from without, and a common necessity (Slavery) within, will be sure to make the South a great, a united, a vigilant and a warlike people."

..
1856_zpsc246abd4.jpg


",...the division is sure to take place...Socialism, communism, infidelity, licentiousness and agrarianism, now scarcely suppressed by Union with the conservative South will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

Here we go again. Didn't you already post this? Do you know the meaning of the word SPAM?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Here we go again. Didn't you already post this? Do you know the meaning of the word SPAM?

What did it say? How do you know it's spam if you didn't read it?

Wow, did you know that the south threatened to ally with Cuba and Russia if they couldn't expand slavery into the north and all of the new territories? See, you learn something new everyday?
 
Last edited:
Re: Confederate Flag

You mean that silly event like the cold blooded murder of 9 black men and women in their church by a white supremacist? That sort of "cause driven" action? Wow. Just WOW.
1 tragic event. And rather than celebrate an incredible healing action and powerful demonstration of love and forgiveness offered by the families of the victims, people seized on a tragedy yet again to promote their cause and in the process have created and fomented further hatred. Well done? Wow? No ****. Wow.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I have actually found out some things that I was never taught. For instance I was reading an article in one of my UDC magazines before I gave them away to a friend of mine who either he or his wife is a descendant of General Lee. Anyway they were talking about how Arlington Cemetery came to be, and that when the government stole the land from the Lee family, Grant, surprisingly, was the one who insisted that the land and home be returned, even if he had to quit his high ranking job. Ultimately the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Lee family, but by then the damage was already done. The Lee family was forced to sell the land back to the government and now it is Arlington National Cemetery. There is something I was never taught about Grant. My granddaddy hated the guy, never acknowledged one good thing he did, ever. Sure he was a drunk piece of work for most of the war, but he did manage to do something right. Well 2 things right. He rode a beautiful American Saddlebred horse named Cincinnati. Saddlebreds are the most beautiful horses on earth.

Lee did try to do his best - by the standards of the time - to be an honorable man...but compare that to the lives of each and every slave whose status as slaves his side was fighting for. Lee had land that was taken from him rightly or wrongly...but the slaves could not hold land at all - how could property own property?

Remember, my own Southern heritage is deeper than most. I knew then as now how courageous the rebel soldiers were, how man-for-man they tended to be better soldiers, better shots than those on the Union side. But that does not make right what they were fighting for. There are courageous, honorable soldiers and generals on every side in every war, but that does. not. make. right. what they were fighting for. There was a time when I would have defended the Confederacy just as strongly as you try to...but now that I've learned from the words of the Confederates' leaders themselves what the Confederacy really stood for, I now see that what the Confederacy stood for is indefensible, abhorrent, a true crime against humanity.

To be sure, the North's hands were not entirely clean - but while you yourself can point to the North's sometimes halfhearted approach to abolition of slavery, that WAS the reason the South seceded - to preserve the institution of slavery. That single fact - that the South was fighting to preserve slavery - overrides anything the North did wrong. If you want to commemorate the rebels who fought, then do so - but at the same time, remember that even in the eyes of much of the developed world at the time, the Confederates were fighting to preserve and perpetuate a crime against humanity.

Texas is a great example. Mexico had abolished slavery in 1830 - and at the time they still ruled Texas. So what did the Texans do? They made the blacks into 'serfs'. Then in 1836, when Texas fought for and gained their independence, what was among the first things they did? They reestablished slavery.

Even in Mexico, slavery had been abolished. In all of developed Europe, and even in Mexico.

I understand your pride in your heritage - for I had that same pride. But it was badly misplaced pride, borne of that all-too-common desire of the defeated (because the Confederacy was indeed defeated) to preserve their identity and their pride. There's nothing wrong with praising the courage and skill of the Confederate soldiers and their generals...but there's everything wrong with trying to commemorate what they were fighting for, for what they were fighting for was slavery.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Well I'm certainly learning to hate and fear over the past few years. It's not my parents doing the teaching though.

Something to remember: people of all nations, all societies are racist...BUT in every instance, the racism committed by the dominant race is more egregious than that committed by the 'lesser' races.

Look beyond your community, your country. If you can, travel overseas a bit, and perhaps you'll learn what I did - that (after allowing for cultural mores and traditions and education) people really are the same all over the world. They really are. Remember that.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Says the little lady who parrots her granddaddy. I told her I liked her posts because she posts historical documented facts from the war period itself.....and not some romanticized version told to an eight year old by a granddaddy who wasn't even there.

Yeah war vets always lie huh? I doubt they told my granddaddy and his Benedictine company anything that wasn't true.
 
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