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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

I'm sorry, I assume you know what you write.

You: The American flag does NOT represent slavery...

Me: It does today.

Then I gave you an article on why it does.

No, that article did NOT back that claim. Hence my justifiable confusion.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You know how you just said that some people celebrate a flag for one reason and some for another? Well some people do not celebrate flags for one reason and some for another. Dont lump me in with those morons you are annoyed with.


Btw there isnt many Germans using a flag of a faction that destroyed their country as a symbol of their heritage. Think about how stupid it would be for Germans to fly Nazi flags celebrating their heritage. I suspect that Jews would be highly offended by such a thing. So it is no surprise that African Americans are upset about a flag from a faction that went to war for a States right to keep black people as slaves, for as long as they could. That sounds a lot worse than the North and their not knowing what to do with freemen of African decent. Oh thats right Lincoln figured out that they should be allowed to vote.
MOST Southerners do not view flag with the same sentiment you and/or others assign it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Wtf??

How can you not understand that having a sign that says "Black people are inferior," attached to a state capital has a significant impact on black americans, and even other minority populations who feel alienated and intimidated by a culture that GLORIFIES a symbol of SLAVERY?!
You are the one that wants to make it mean that for everyone. And lets be honest, shall we? For all your bleating and braying, large populations of blacks in this country are struggling and even dying...whther that flag is blowing in the breeze or not. Your ridiculous emphasis is precisely the reason blacks in America are so consistently ****ed.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

MOST Southerners do not view flag with the same sentiment you and/or others assign it.

That might be true. But if i was in Germany and i put up a swastika flag and said "to me, it stands for rainbows and lollipops," that'd be a pretty terrible excuse based in complete ignorance of history that insults and degrades an entire race of people.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So you don't want to know the truth. Figures people think that way.

I'm sorry, but you do not have exclusive access to truth, and i will not let one book overwrite the overwhelming unanimity of academic textbooks on the subject.

It's ironic, because it is you who refuse to pursue truth.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh, good, so if my grandfather was racist, then i'm a racist too. And if i was a racist before, i'll be a racist for the rest of my life, i'm not allowed to change my mind.

Not anywhere close to what I was saying....

But keep avoiding the facts and changing the discussion if you want.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That might be true. But if i was in Germany and i put up a swastika flag and said "to me, it stands for rainbows and lollipops," that'd be a pretty terrible excuse based in complete ignorance of history that insults and degrades an entire race of people.
Whatever you say chief. If you are foolish enough to equate the two, be my guest. Theres a "Black Lives Matter" or a gay pride parade or a pro abortion march somewhere you can join when this all dies down.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No, that article did NOT back that claim. Hence my justifiable confusion.
Really:

Yet when each state left the Union, its leaders made clear that they were seceding because they were for slavery and against states’ rights. In its “Declaration of the Causes Which Impel the State of Texas to Secede From the Federal Union,” for example, the secession convention of Texas listed the states that had offended the delegates: “Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa.” Governments there had exercised states’ rights by passing laws that interfered with the federal government’s attempts to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. Some no longer let slave owners “transit” across their territory with slaves. “States’ rights” were what Texas was seceding against. Texas also made clear what it was seceding for — white supremacy:

That above is what taints the flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

If by "self-governance" you mean "continue to unjustly enslave blacks" then you'd be accurate.

Are you trying to argue that secession and the war were not related? What college taught you history? Seriously? Where should i NEVER send my children?
Yes, self-governance in the case of the secession did in fact include keeping slavery legal. Nowhere did I DENY that, nor did I claim to AGREE to it. Just using their own words from the SC Declaration of Secession document.
As for the 2nd sentence of your post...

Aren't you the guy who claimed to have a doctorate degree?
Im trying to figure out how a doctorate holder can't seem to follow a VERY simple concept... and has to resort to conjuring arguments I never made, and attributing them to me, in order to make his point.

But, to answer your question in short... No I am not arguing that secession and the war were not related.

I AM stating that the reasons for secession and the reasons why the war occurred are 2 different reasons. They DO RELATE to one another... but they aren't the the same.

People with your line of thinking would claim that a man was shot by police because of a seat belt violation. When in actuality, the person shot by police was killed because during a traffic stop for a seat belt violation he pulled out a gun and fired upon police officers, who then killed him.

Was his death RELATED to a seat belt violation? Sure. Was he shot FOR a seat belt violation? No.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

MOST Southerners do not view flag with the same sentiment you and/or others assign it.

Most skinheads dont view the Nazi flag like I do either.

I like how you act as if you are the only thats every been to the Southern States. My family comes from Cullman Alabama. I spent a lot of time there myself. Buried my Dad there next to his Dad. The Confederate battle flag represents Southern whites only. I like how you have turned a blind eye to that fact.

The civil rights movement is very historical and many Southerners feel that it is apart of their heritage. Perhaps there should be a monument to the civil rights movement at on State grounds. They could fly the relevant flags from the civil rights movement. I certainly dont want to see this end up with the far left being allowed to fly their flags on government property.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That might be true. But if i was in Germany and i put up a swastika flag and said "to me, it stands for rainbows and lollipops," that'd be a pretty terrible excuse based in complete ignorance of history that insults and degrades an entire race of people.

It also degrades several eastern religions who originally had the swastika symbol in their religious symbology as a symbol of well being.

But thats also none of my business...........
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Most skinheads dont view the Nazi flag like I do either.

I like how you act as if you are the only thats every been to the Southern States. My family comes from Cullman Alabama. I spent a lot of time there myself. Buried my Dad there next to his Dad. The Confederate battle flag represents Southern whites only. I like how you have turned a blind eye to that fact.

The civil rights movement is very historical and many Southerners feel that it is apart of their heritage. Perhaps there should be a monument to the civil rights movement at on State grounds. They could fly the relevant flags from the civil rights movement. I certainly dont want to see this end up with the far left being allowed to fly their flags on government property.
Please show where I am acting as if I am the only one that has ever been to the Southern states.

If the citizens of the state wish to fly a civil rights flag then they should. They just shouldnt be coerced into doing it because a bunch of race bating assholes appealed to their 'white guilt'.

See the pattern emerging?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Please show where I am acting as if I am the only one that has ever been to the Southern states.

If the citizens of the state wish to fly a civil rights flag then they should. They just shouldnt be coerced into doing it because a bunch of race bating assholes appealed to their 'white guilt'.

See the pattern emerging?

Yes I do see the pattern. You seem to conflate the fact that the Confederate States (the people who actually used the Confederate flags) ALL listed Slavery as their main reason for seceding from the Union. The Confederate States insisted that slavery of black people is their right. Claiming that the Confederate flag is our heritage is embarrassing. It is a bad heritage, a heritage that is directly tied at every turn to slavery and white supremacy. ANd the fact that you dont see it that way is why it must be told to you.

Mississippi Makes it extremely clear what the Confederacy stood for and what their flag stood for:"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world." The Confederate flag is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I'm sorry, but you do not have exclusive access to truth, and i will not let one book overwrite the overwhelming unanimity of academic textbooks on the subject.

It's ironic, because it is you who refuse to pursue truth.

No I was taught truth, and it sure as heck was from no "history" book.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

G'Day to you too, mate...

I don't necessarily disagree with your comments.

My personal opinion is that I don't think that it should be displayed at State governments/institutions. But that's not saying that I opine that it should be banned from existence in the USA. I don't at all see it in the same light as say, Hitler's Swastika flag, which he replaced Germany's national flag with.

From a historical standpoint, the Confederacy was created by a incredible philosophical division within a nation, between its citizens - over whether there was a fundamental right to own slaves. And in the end...yes...the Confederate flag was symbolic of that division.

But lets not be naive here.

At the birth of our nation, the industrial age was at the zygote stage here in American so - "economically speaking" - a fair number of men associated with creating our government hated the idea of industrialization because they believed that our destiny was rooted in fruits of our labor that could only come from working the soil. Obviously - the labor part - is where slavery comes in. At least for the elite who were creating our nation.

Most of the founders/framers of the United States of America were elite white male slave owners. They made their fortunes using slaves. We don't think about this reality because for all practical purposes it was (and still is) "omitted as a fact of history" in education institutions from the 12 grade and under. Consequently, from an educational standpoint, our young minds were never engaged in a way to even consider that our founders were wrongfully involved in the ownership of other human beings, which were used for uncompensated labor and a considered to be commodities, in and of themselves.

I've been around a few decades. Until I went to college...just the thought of our founders being slave owners - was a foreign idea or concept. And while college level history doesn't often candy coat history - in my American History class...my mind just skipped over esoteric implications of our founders being slave owners, which should have jarred me, not only intellectually, but emotionally in some way.

I'm personally not aware of any generation that has been seriously educated about the staunch realities regarding our founders support of, and use of enslaved human beings (which of course they called property). Not only that, but many believed that they had an inalienable right to own a species of life resembling human beings to provide free labor and sell even at will like a John Deere Tractor.

Even today...by technical/propaganda default (IOWs - by reasons related to the historical gloss over or omission of facts presented to most people) - most folks don't indulge in seriously pondering the fact that our at the dawn of nation - its core economy - had much to do with the use of slave labor for enterprise purposes - and that included breeding and selling slaves. Should people ponder such? I think so. But from reading much of this thread, a lot of people would disagree.

So...I think that people should have the right to make bumper stickers, Tee-shirts bikinis and beer koozies that looks like a Confederate flag - or even fly one on their own property. And if doing such offends others, too bad. People have the right to be offended. And those who offend have a right to do that too as long as they don't, in some malicious way, cause injury or mortal harm to others.

After all...that's what a lot of people do the the United States flag. Some folks even burn them. Offensive? I'm betting to a lot of people..yes. But in the same vein, too bad. The 1st Amendment applies to both of these situations.

I wholeheartedly agree. The first amendment does give people the right to express themselves, within some well-circumscribed limits. I do not believe that any government, or part thereof, in the U.S. should be allowed to fly the Confederate flag on any of its property.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh...Before I forget...(and really didn't have enough character space in my previous post)....

What about the flag of England?



What about the flag of France?



What about the Netherland's?



What about Portugal's Flag?



And of course...there was Spain...but I don't have enough character space.

Top 6 Countries That Grew Filthy Rich From Enslaving Black People - Atlanta Blackstar

Just sayin....

Thanks, mate...

I repeat my position that all of these countries were involved in the buying, selling, and employment of slaves, but none of them made the enslavement of an entire "inferior" race a fundamental part of their governmental structure, nor of their reason for existing.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes I do see the pattern. You seem to conflate the fact that the Confederate States (the people who actually used the Confederate flags) ALL listed Slavery as their main reason for seceding from the Union. The Confederate States insisted that slavery of black people is their right. Claiming that the Confederate flag is our heritage is embarrassing. It is a bad heritage, a heritage that is directly tied at every turn to slavery and white supremacy. ANd the fact that you dont see it that way is why it must be told to you.

Mississippi Makes it extremely clear what the Confederacy stood for and what their flag stood for:"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world." The Confederate flag is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery.
No...you arent able to see it apparently. I dont care what the states choose...to flu the confederate flag, a civil rights flag, hell...let their freak flag fly. It should just be THEIR choice without coercion by a bunch of cause driven ****heads.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I repeat my position that all of these countries were involved in the buying, selling, and employment of slaves, but none of them made the enslavement of an entire "inferior" race a fundamental part of their governmental structure, nor of their reason for existing.

I do understand your position, but what you're claiming isn't entirely true....

My point is that just because these other nations didn't divide over the right to own/trade slaves and have a civil war over it - those governments very much embraced slavery - for both labor and trade.

The U.K. abolished slavery only 32 years prior to the U.S.

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 (citation 3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) was an 1833 Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom abolishing slavery throughout the British Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

February 4, 1794 France abolished slavery. Reinstated it in 1802 and finally abolished slavery again in 1848.

As a nation France had a lukewarm commitment to abolition. Under Napoleon - France reestablished slavery in 1802 along with the reinstitution of the "Code noir", prohibiting Blacks, mulattoes and other people of color from entering French colonial territory or intermarrying with whites.

These orders carried out by General Antoine Richepance brutally reinstituted slavery in the French Antilles in 1802. Thousands of people of color were killed in Guadeloupe alone as they fought to retain their freedom.

France as a country finally ended slavery in 1848.

France abolishes slavery | African American Registry

The abolition of all forms of slavery occurred in 1761 on mainland Portugal and Portuguese India through a decree by the Marquis of Pombal

The transatlantic slave trade was definitely outlawed altogether by Portugal in 1836, at the same time as other European powers, as a result of British pressure. Slavery within the African Portuguese colonies, however, would only be definitely abolished in 1869, following a treaty between United States and Britain for the suppression of the slave trade. In Brazil, which had become independent from Portugal in 1822, slavery was finally abolished in 1888.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Portugal

I can go on with a fairly long list of countries whose government did incorporate the right to slave ownership into their laws or willfully condoned slavery for labor and trade. And slavery didn't end for some countries until nearly 20 years after the U.S. ended slavery in 1862...which of course divided the nation, created the Confederacy.

From 1518 to the very latest date in which slavery was abolished - a lot of countries WERE GUILTY of slavery (for labor and trade) - BECAUSE - they all deemed Africans as inferior - almost animal like creatures only worthy for labor or trade.

In the end...I don't believe that state governments should be publicly displaying the Confederate flag - anywhere (schools, government buildings, state parks, state monuments, etc.) BUT - I don't believe government has the right to BAN the confederate flag from citizens or private businesses.

Thanks, Amigo...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Not anywhere close to what I was saying....

But keep avoiding the facts and changing the discussion if you want.

You said the north had slaves, so the north was equally racist. The north decided to END slavery, and the south went to WAR to maintain it.

Seems pretty obvious that the south had less interests in the freedom and liberty of black Americans.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes, self-governance in the case of the secession did in fact include keeping slavery legal. Nowhere did I DENY that, nor did I claim to AGREE to it. Just using their own words from the SC Declaration of Secession document.
As for the 2nd sentence of your post...

Aren't you the guy who claimed to have a doctorate degree?
Im trying to figure out how a doctorate holder can't seem to follow a VERY simple concept... and has to resort to conjuring arguments I never made, and attributing them to me, in order to make his point.

But, to answer your question in short... No I am not arguing that secession and the war were not related.

I AM stating that the reasons for secession and the reasons why the war occurred are 2 different reasons. They DO RELATE to one another... but they aren't the the same.

People with your line of thinking would claim that a man was shot by police because of a seat belt violation. When in actuality, the person shot by police was killed because during a traffic stop for a seat belt violation he pulled out a gun and fired upon police officers, who then killed him.

Was his death RELATED to a seat belt violation? Sure. Was he shot FOR a seat belt violation? No.

I do not have a doctorate degree.

I don't know what you're trying to say. The reason for the civil war was that the south refused to endure an end to slavery. The confederate flag is a symbol of that refusal, and therefore a symbol of racist oppression. I don't see how you can possibly agree with so much, and yet deny that it is reasonable for a black American to be offended, intimidated, denigrated, or belittled by the confederate flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You said the north had slaves, so the north was equally racist.
Slavery does not = Racism. You can have Racism without slavery. The fact that major heroes of the Union were also quite racist (Grant, Lincoln, etc) proves that racism existed despite the desire to remove the institution of slavery.

The north decided to END slavery, and the south went to WAR to maintain it.
You are jumping portions of history to reach this simplified position. The north decided to end slavery to gain support for the war (where recruiting in the north was lacking, and the british were in support of the south until emancipation) and the South didn't go to war to maintain slavery, they went to war to maintain their independence from the union. They SECEDED from the nation over slavery. Related, but not the same thing.

Seems pretty obvious that the south had less interests in the freedom and liberty of black Americans.
And yet, your statement fails when Free black slave owners in the south existed. They were free, and free to have the "liberty" (as they considered it) of owning slaves.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I mean, raise the flag in front of your house. I don't care. Keep it off state property. There should be NO governmental endorsement of SLAVERY and racial oppression, flying in the air.
 
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