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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
Wait - up until 2 years ago, the US oppressed Iraqi's and Afghani's and killed their people indiscriminately. The American flag hasn't changed since 1958 as far as I know.



So I reiterate.... why shouldn't the Stars and Stripes be banned as well since the US has oppressed others since Korea and Vietnam.
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Oh..I see....in the world your argument creates, being at war with the Iraq State under Hussein, the Taliban and AQ in Afghanistan, The Communists of North Vietnam and North Korea.......are the equivalents of the slave system in the Antebellum South.

Absurd.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
If that is what your liberal revisionist history lessons have taught you.
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Well, it is entirely your choice to show that there was not a movement toward eliminating slavery written into the USC, or that the debate was not well in hand in the North after 1809...That would be proving me wrong.....instead of taking the easy way out by ironically engaging in accusations of politically based revisionism!
When I view the Confederacy... I do it by ignoring the slavery aspect
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That is precisely my point, that is what allows you to ignorantly ask how the symbol causes issues between the races of the US.



Alexander Stephens:

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Oh..I see....in the world your argument creates, being at war with the Iraq State under Hussein, the Taliban and AQ in Afghanistan, The Communists of North Vietnam and North Korea.......are the equivalents of the slave system in the Antebellum South.

Absurd.
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What's absurd about it? If oppression against the slaves and former slaves is active in a flag that represents a confederate state, why isn't the same level of oppression assigned to the American flag for the oppression that has occurred in foreign wars - wars not of necessity but of convenience where people were killed, murdered, raped, etc.

See when put on equal footing - all of a sudden the argument is as you say, "absurd". Well done - you got to the crux of the issue very quickly.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
What's absurd about it? If oppression against the slaves and former slaves is active in a flag that represents a confederate state, why isn't the same level of oppression assigned to the American flag for the oppression that has occurred in foreign wars - wars not of necessity but of convenience where people were killed, murdered, raped, etc.

See when put on equal footing - all of a sudden the argument is as you say, "absurd". Well done - you got to the crux of the issue very quickly.
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I have no idea why I am required to explain to you how a state of war(s) is different from a slave based economy.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
I have no idea why I am required to explain to you how a state of war(s) is different from a slave based economy.
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It was a state of War between the Union and Confederacy - just like it was a state of War between the US and Korea. The American flag is just as oppressive internationally as those who claim the Confederate flag is so ban them both. But you say that is absurd... why is it absurd in one case and not in the other? Make the argument.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
It was a state of War between the Union and Confederacy - just like it was a state of War between the US and Korea. The American flag is just as oppressive internationally as those who claim the Confederate flag is so ban them both. But you say that is absurd... why is it absurd in one case and not in the other? Make the argument.
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My argument is not that since the US (or other nations) engage in war, we should end state sponsorship of our flag. The Confederate flag should have its state endorsement ended since it represents a slave based system. The current US flag (and the current US govt) is not representative of a system based on slavery.

If you want to call states of war "slavery", it is entirely your prerogative to do so, but I think it is absurd.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
My argument is not that since the US (or other nations) engage in war, we should end state sponsorship of our flag. The Confederate flag should have its state endorsement ended since it represents a slave based system. The current US flag (and the current US govt) is not representative of a system based on slavery.
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So the basis of your argument is that slavery trumps all other things... and that decades of murder, rape and death done in the name of the American flag is just fine and dandy because, hey... at least it wasn't representing slavery! :roll:

Ok then....
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
She doesn't understand the chronology of dates... how do you expect her to deal with more nuanced concepts?
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What exactly is NUANCED about slavery of a race of people?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

haymarket said:
What exactly is NUANCED about slavery of a race of people?
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And what is it about 200 year old slavery that ramps your blood so bad?

You know that there is slavery now? that many illegal immigrants in your country are living in slavery to pay off getting there? How come no threads about that?

You know that the worst slavery known to man occurred just a few years ago? And I bet you never thought to go ape **** over the swastika...


Why is that? You only have compassion for blacks you never met, and not Jews you might have met?

Or is it because your master has wrung the bell and you can't help but salivate?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
So the basis of your argument is that slavery trumps all other things... and that decades of murder, rape and death done in the name of the American flag is just fine and dandy because, hey... at least it wasn't representing slavery! :roll:

Ok then....
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Oh, I see, we are going to divert to the argument for perfection. That is cute. I view it this way, we are nation with the stated goal of equality under the law and have been working towards this goal. The Confederacy was not founded on that goal, in fact is was based on the opposite belief that Blacks were inferior to Whites. We should not endorse a system with that ideology.

I never made the claim the US, its policies or action have been perfect (they haven't) or are the best (they are not), but then that wasn't the premise...was it?

PS...you are really off-base if you think I am going to defend the policies of Johnson/Nixon or of GWB. But the defending of South Korea from becoming enslaved under NK regimes, I am fine with Truman going forward and pushing NK back to the 39th.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Well, it is entirely your choice to show that there was not a movement toward eliminating slavery written into the USC, or that the debate was not well in hand in the North after 1809...That would be proving me wrong.....instead of taking the easy way out by ironically engaging in accusations of politically based revisionism!
That is precisely my point, that is what allows you to ignorantly ask how the symbol causes issues between the races of the US.



Alexander Stephens:

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
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So... one guy said something dumb.....

How many people have said dumb things in the past decade that in 100 years will be viewed as abhorrent.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Oh, I see, we are going to divert to the argument for perfection.
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Hardly. I'm simply proposing you use the same standard and same amount of insight that is used on the Confederate Flag, now on the American Flag. Yet when I forced that to happen, the argument became "absurd". Why then couldn't someone have a valid view that the argument against the Confederate Flag was equally "absurd"?

Gimmesometruth said:
That is cute. I view it this way, we are nation with the stated goal of equality under the law and have been working towards this goal. The Confederacy was not founded on that goal, in fact is was based on the opposite belief that Black are inferior to Whites. We should not endorse a system with that ideology.
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Like I said, to you slavery trumps all and you're not willing to use that same insight and that same amount of criticism against the American Flag, which as I stated earlier, is viewed with just as much animosity and oppression as many view the Confederate Flag.

Apparently the way it's viewed is the calls for one flags removal is valid, the same view of the OTHER flag's removal is "absurd".
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
My argument is not that since the US (or other nations) engage in war, we should end state sponsorship of our flag. The Confederate flag should have its state endorsement ended since it represents a slave based system. The current US flag (and the current US govt) is not representative of a system based on slavery.

If you want to call states of war "slavery", it is entirely your prerogative to do so, but I think it is absurd.
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And the U.S. Flag represents raping, pillaging, looting, and burning cities of the south during the Civil War, WITH Approval from the Chief Executive, the Tyrant Abraham Lincoln.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
So... one guy said something dumb.....

How many people have said dumb things in the past decade that in 100 years will be viewed as abhorrent.
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Um, that one "guy", the Confederate VP, was expressing the credo of the Confederacy, the ideology of the govt.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
Hardly. I'm simply proposing you use the same standard and same amount of insight that is used on the Confederate Flag, now on the American Flag. Yet when I forced that to happen, the argument became "absurd". Why then couldn't someone have a valid view that the argument against the Confederate Flag was equally "absurd"?
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The absurdity was the equating a govt based on slavery with a govt that goes to war. Those 2 things are very different.

Like I said, to you slavery trumps all and you're not willing to use that same insight and that same amount of criticism against the American Flag, which as I stated earlier, is viewed with just as much animosity and oppression as many view the Confederate Flag.
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No, I do not see large segments of the US population wanting the US flag treated the same way as the Confederate BF.....but then I am not living in your arguments worl, so our mileage will vary.

Apparently the way it's viewed is the calls for one flags removal is valid, the same view of the OTHER flag's removal is "absurd".
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Now you are conflating the 2 argument while still confused about what is the absurd comparison.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
And the U.S. Flag represents raping, pillaging, looting, and burning cities of the south during the Civil War, WITH Approval from the Chief Executive, the Tyrant Abraham Lincoln.
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So the South was not engaged in the same sorts of actions that happened in (dare I say) all 19th century wars?

You lost track, like ocham, the debate was not about if a country goes to war should we end sponsorship of its symbol. Perhaps a review is in order.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
The absurdity was the equating a govt based on slavery with a govt that goes to war. Those 2 things are very different.
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Both were war - they are not different.

Gimmesometruth said:
No, I do not see large segments of the US population wanting the US flag treated the same way as the Confederate BF.....but then I am not living in your arguments worl, so our mileage will vary.
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I didn't ask you your opinion on the US populations temperature on the subject - I'm asking why you cannot attribute the same critical views of both flags and why you deem one valid and the other absurd given a level playing field. So far, you haven't been able to answer the question.

Gimmesometruth said:
Now you are conflating the 2 argument while still confused about what is the absurd comparison.
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I'm not conflating anything but you are not apparently comfortable with using the same critical eye on both, which is interesting.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
Both were war - they are not different.
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Uh, no, it it commonly understood that slavery and war are in fact very different actions, it is absurd to equate them.

I didn't ask you your opinion on the US populations temperature on the subject
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But that is the context of the whole thread, what is the view of the Confederate BF being an endorsed state symbol
- I'm asking why you cannot attribute the same critical views of both flags and why you deem one valid and the other absurd given a level playing field. So far, you haven't been able to answer the question.
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I have in fact answered that, you have lost track....again.

I'm not conflating anything
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Yes, in fact, you did.
but you are not apparently comfortable with using the same critical eye on both, which is interesting.
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The same critical eye...on slavery.....and on war? Oh but I have, I understand they are very different things and not to be absurdly equated.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Um, that one "guy", the Confederate VP, was expressing the credo of the Confederacy, the ideology of the govt.
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I don't give a rats ass about the Confederate Government as much as I care about the states having a right to leave a government that they no longer consent to govern them.

Which was supported by nearly all founding father's writings and politicians of the time up to such point as the government has a compelling interest to claim, after hundreds of thousands died in a bloody war, that secession was unconstitutional.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
I don't give a rats ass about the Confederate Government.......
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Well, then you have completely lost track of everything.....because this entire debate is about the state endorsement of a symbol representing those that defended the Confederate government.

Way to defeat your position:

How. What exactly is the removal of a symbol flag.... one of which I thought that they had removed years ago..... what is that going to do for race relations.
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Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Well, then you have completely lost track of everything.....because this entire debate is about the state endorsement of a symbol representing those that defended the Confederate government.

Way to defeat your position:
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I see you have still avoided my calls for you to explain yourself beyond "Self-Evident"
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So much ado about nothing. It smells of desperation to appease, in my opinion.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
I see you have still avoided my calls for you to explain yourself beyond "Self-Evident"
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I see you have still avoided my explanations to you to explain beyond the "Self-Evident".

But then....that is all in reference to the Confederate Government......which you don't care about.......so if you don't care about the central points......WTF are you doing here?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
I see you have still avoided my explanations to you to explain beyond the "Self-Evident".

But then....that is all in reference to the Confederate Government......which you don't care about.......so if you don't care about the central points......WTF are you doing here?
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Actually... I quoted all of your responses in a thread you apparently ignored.....

Im done with you.... come back when you have something more to show than,

INVALID.jpg
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
Actually... I quoted all of your responses in a thread you apparently ignored.....
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I saw it, you decided to enlarge the parts you only focused upon. This proves my point.

Im done with you.... come back when you have something more to show than (invalid)
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Someday you might learn that straw is not a way to win argument.
 
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