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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Of course, by removing it from the context of NAZI Germany, but the context of the CBF is not, cannot be removed from the Confederate govt.

Of course it can be removed in context... I easily did it. Others I know have as well as probably millions of others...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Um, we aren't debating a constellation,
.

It doesn't represent a constellation... that is the New Zealand and Australian Flags.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Plessy was reversed by Brown vs School Board of Topeka, 1954.

Yes. I know. Does that somehow negate my point though? Nope.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Plessy v Ferguson was a joke. An insult. Separate? Yes. Equal? Not even close.

No. It was not a joke. It was unconstitutional and ruined the lives of countless people.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh, won't someone think of the poor white people who are unwittingly racist and have to confront the idea that they've been waving a symbol of racism around all their lives?!

Sorry, maybe you're sick of the horrible burden of hearing other people complain about racism, but i suggest you suck it up. It's a whole lot better to hear some whining than it is to be discriminated against. Or have a symbol that epitomizes the idea that you were born inferior flying in your face on government property.

Nevermind.... I am not even on the topic of the flag anymore but you keep focusing on it.

However, this is a thread about the flag, so I guess I shouldn't be going off topic.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh, won't someone think of the poor white people who are unwittingly racist and have to confront the idea that they've been waving a symbol of racism around all their lives?!

Sorry, maybe you're sick of the horrible burden of hearing other people complain about racism, but i suggest you suck it up. It's a whole lot better to hear some whining than it is to be discriminated against. Or have a symbol that epitomizes the idea that you were born inferior flying in your face on government property.

That may be how some see it. It would be better to let the whiners crying racism whine than to limit free speech regarding a symbol that is not racist but has been adopted by racists.
 
Clearly you don't know how to read.

How do you turn "Covered in the other 1630 posts in this thread" into "Covered in post 1630 of this thread"

Oh, wait, I know, because you were just anxious to find a way to smack talk someone's post incoherent when you weren't part of that discussion, so anxious in fact that your brain leaked out of your skull and you forgot how to read.

Check below your chair, scoop that **** up, put it back in there, and lets keep going.

OK my bad, but explain where it is covered exactly as I don't see it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Wrong. The Confederate Flag represents the South.

Designed by William Porcher Miles, the chairman of the Flag and Seal committee, a now-popular variant of the Confederate flag was rejected as the national flag in 1861. It was instead adopted as a battle flag by the Army of Northern Virginia under General Robert E. Lee. Despite never having historically represented the CSA as a country nor officially recognized as one of the national flags, it is commonly referred to as "the Confederate Flag" and has become a widely recognized symbol of the American south

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#The_.22Confederate_flag.22



Yes, and the Confederate Flag, at one time, practiced slavery. It does not nor has not in 150 years though... same as the rest of the United States.



That isn't anything like saying that. The German Flag and the Swastika Flag are not the same. False analogy.

Your article also says it's been associated with racism. Did you skip over that part since it's devastating to your case?

Or did you mention the fact that it originated during the civil war, as a symbol of the south, who engaged in war because they wanted to force every state in the union to enforce their slaves-are-property laws??

Hmm, did the history of the American flag share the exact same tainted legacy?

That may be how some see it. It would be better to let the whiners crying racism whine than to limit free speech regarding a symbol that is not racist but has been adopted by racists.

Not many symbols are actually racist, basically only when the symbol actually depicts slavery. The swastika, for example, has been used by non-racists for a loooong time. That doesn't mean it's cool to spend taxpayer money to fly a swastika in a Jewish community because "free speech." We, adult human beings, who are vaguely aware of history, can be more sensitive to not display symbols that are believably offensive to a reasonable person. That means symbols that have been widely known to be used by racists.

It might be a good idea to swallow a little southern pride and say, "i really didn't feel like that's what it meant to me, but i can appreciate how that might be interpreted as offensive, and i'm a mature, considerate human being, so i'll let it go."
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I have studied a lot of history and never viewed it as a racist symbol first. When used by some it is obviously racist but it primarily represents the South.

And the Swastika as used by the Nazi's is not comparable to the Confederate Flag and I am sure you know why too. I am getting a little tired of people making that comparison.

No, they are comparable in that both have a history other than what is attached to them now. Both have been tarnished. And history can be read selectively. ;)
 
OK my bad, but explain where it is covered exactly as I don't see it.

It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread which is over 1600 posts long.

Im not going to spend the time to find it...... not my problem.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Not many symbols are actually racist, basically only when the symbol actually depicts slavery. The swastika, for example, has been used by non-racists for a loooong time. That doesn't mean it's cool to spend taxpayer money to fly a swastika in a Jewish community because "free speech." We, adult human beings, who are vaguely aware of history, can be more sensitive to not display symbols that are believably offensive to a reasonable person. That means symbols that have been widely known to be used by racists.

It might be a good idea to swallow a little southern pride and say, "i really didn't feel like that's what it meant to me, but i can appreciate how that might be interpreted as offensive, and i'm a mature, considerate human being, so i'll let it go."

And I think most people don't have a problem with removing the confederate flag from a pole near the SC state house. I don't think most normal whites in SC have a problem with it either. Especially on this issue since the CSA Battle Flag is what it is.

As far as the rest of the attempts to remove memorials, monuments, names from military posts, and even dig up the dead and move them......... there has to be a line drawn somewhere, or it WILL become a slippery slope in that anything that offends someone will have motivation (based on these actions) to demand that whatever it is that offends them also be removed from public sight. And the farther we take THAT idea and actually succomb to it, the greater the idea for removing freedom of expression for the private individual as well.

The fact that symbology of Nazi Germany is quite illegal in Germany is a testament to just how far a people can let the government control their freedom of expression. We should NEVER stoop to such levels, regardless of the content.
 
It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread which is over 1600 posts long.

Im not going to spend the time to find it...... not my problem.

I always suspect when one won't clarify its because he or she can't.
 
Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

Yes because it's a symbol of racism. Every symbol of the confederacy and the south should be purged. The south lost the war, tough luck.
 
Yes because it's a symbol of racism. Every symbol of the confederacy and the south should be purged. The south lost the war, tough luck.

Your not a progressive but a fascist dictator that wants to erase history. Are you going to dig up my family member because he served as a confederate soldier? That is a crime to mess with his gravesite so we should leave only those that are glorifying General Sherman? I was being sarcastic since I considered him a terrorist and war criminal at least he would be today from what I learned about his March through the south.
 
Your not a progressive but a fascist dictator that wants to erase history. Are you going to dig up my family member because he served as a confederate soldier? That is a crime to mess with his gravesite so we should leave only those that are glorifying General Sherman? I was being sarcastic since I considered him a terrorist and war criminal at least he would be today from what I learned about his March through the south.

Wow, there's a lot of hysterics packed into that short rant. Ignoring the south's and white supremacists continued lying about the reason the south committed treason by waging war on the United States is about as history erasing as it gets. Believe me, your ancestors remains are not of any interest to anyone but you. That's such a pathetic attempt to deflect the subject away from the facts that I'm actually embarrassed for you for making it. Sherman was just as much of a white supremacist as you and your ancestors but he believed the Union must be preserved. His March to the Sea shortened that awful war and saved countless numbers of lives on both sides of the battle lines. That tactic also happens to be the "total war, unconditional surrender" policy this country has used to defeat enemies like Germany and Japan. Are you saying that those were war crimes committed by terrorists? What about the unprovoked attack on Ft. Sumter by rebel forces in April, 1861? That was a terrorist and traitorous act by today's definitions. By the way, how do you feel about how the way the city and confederate governments of Richmond set fire to their own city on their retreat from it when the war was effectively lost? I'm really glad you've joined the discussion since you bring an even newer aspect of silliness to the rightwing defense of slavery and its aftermath of the brutality of Jim Crow and segregation.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The problem is, aside from obvious and overt racism which everyone finds deplorable....

Most Americans are tired of hearing stories of racism, especially stories that lack any evidence that RACISM had anything to do with an outcome.
I think you misjudge how most Americans feel. But rightwingers like you are always claiming a majority you've never had.

I am tired of hearing about black people FEELING that someone was racist against them with nothing more than their victim status mentality telling them that it was in fact racism.
Yes, like calling the murders in Charleston last month an act of racist-inspired terrorism. So tiresome having to keep hearing that, isn't it?

Myself, and other Americans are going to start demanding that these obscure accusations of racism be verified or that the accuser STFU.
Oh, you're going to demand that, are you? Are you going to stomp your little feet and hold your breath when you do that?

It has gotten to the point that if a black person says it was racism..... it was. Regardless of reality.

Coming from someone who can even look at the murder of an unarmed black men and always immediately label that murdered man a "thug" (using the new racist substitute
term for an older and dearer racial slur).

Also, I find that your accusation of racism towards me because I called you out on your lack of civil debate to be just another typical liberal debate tactic.
Ooops....a little slip there on your part. A bit of over-protest. The worst I've leveled at you is that your arguments echo the anti-civil rights rhetoric of that past (and present) but you decided to equate that with being labeled racist. Well, that was your work, not mine.

Liberals preach tolerance.... and they claim to be tolerant..... unless you disagree with them... then you better shut your evil racist white mouth the **** up.
Ah, that standard rightwing whine based on the phony stereotype you've created about liberals. There's never been a liberal tolerance for hate-mongerers, bigots, liars, race-baiters and racism apologists.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I know you're wrong but will still believe the myth you have in your head

As we've documented many times, horsegirl, you "know" a lot of things that either never happened and are not true.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Um, we aren't debating a constellation, we are debating a CBF, the symbol of one of the worst chapters in US history.
Worse than the US wiping out the Native Americans for 200 years? Worse than the US being a slave nation itself? Worse than making racism legal?

I can think of quite a few things that the United States did, as a nation, that are just as bad as the Slavery of the South that make the US Flag a horrible symbol of murder, enslavement and oppression as well.
Let me first point out that I said "one of the worst chapters, not the worst....try reading. Again, I'll try to explain this to you slowly even though I have done so before, The US changed its policy towards American Indians, just as it did with slavery. The US was not founded upon the principle that men are unequal as the Confederacy was wholly, completely. The US govt changed because the majority changed, the Confederacy did not....and there still remains a large portion of folks in the South who remain unreconstructed. I'll attribute your arguments lack of awareness of these facts to your being a non-US citizen.
 
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Wow, there's a lot of hysterics packed into that short rant. Ignoring the south's and white supremacists continued lying about the reason the south committed treason by waging war on the United States is about as history erasing as it gets. Believe me, your ancestors remains are not of any interest to anyone but you. That's such a pathetic attempt to deflect the subject away from the facts that I'm actually embarrassed for you for making it. Sherman was just as much of a white supremacist as you and your ancestors but he believed the Union must be preserved. His March to the Sea shortened that awful war and saved countless numbers of lives on both sides of the battle lines. That tactic also happens to be the "total war, unconditional surrender" policy this country has used to defeat enemies like Germany and Japan. Are you saying that those were war crimes committed by terrorists? What about the unprovoked attack on Ft. Sumter by rebel forces in April, 1861? That was a terrorist and traitorous act by today's definitions. By the way, how do you feel about how the way the city and confederate governments of Richmond set fire to their own city on their retreat from it when the war was effectively lost? I'm really glad you've joined the discussion since you bring an even newer aspect of silliness to the rightwing defense of slavery and its aftermath of the brutality of Jim Crow and segregation.
Lmao, just because I don't like the idea of digging up dead people or removing things means I am a white supremacist now? He's still a ****ing terroist by today standards and a bloody war criminal who burned most of the cites down and also ordered his men to go ****ing crazy on the civilian populations of the south which was not kosher at the time as they had no way to defend themselves.

Do you know how to debate without calling people racist? Yes I know thats what the books say on Richmond during his March they burnt their city to keep him from looting the place. sweetie And just because he told the cities before hand doesn't make what he did righteous, I bet you approve of the way Bush handled Iraq?
 
Lmao, just because I don't like the idea of digging up dead people or removing things means I am a white supremacist now? He's still a ****ing terroist by today standards and a bloody war criminal who burned most of the cites down and also ordered his men to go ****ing crazy on the civilian populations of the south which was not kosher at the time as they had no way to defend themselves.

Do you know how to debate without calling people racist? Yes I know thats what the books say on Richmond during his March they burnt their city to keep him from looting the place. sweetie And just because he told the cities before hand doesn't make what he did righteous, I bet you approve of the way Bush handled Iraq?
"On behalf of my ancestors who started a war to maintain and expand a system of enslaving for life a race of humans they viewed as inferior and who created the POW prison known as Andersonville, I would like to retroactively charge a Union General with war crimes.

Oooh.....look over there! Iraq!"
 
"On behalf of my ancestors who started a war to maintain and expand a system of enslaving for life a race of humans they viewed as inferior and who created the POW prison known as Andersonville, I would like to retroactively charge a Union General with war crimes.

Oooh.....look over there! Iraq!"

You do realize it want really considered a war crime as it wasn't a part of the war. Yes I think the ones who ran Andersonville did the best he could with the supplies he was given not that I don't agree it was horrible how they were treated. I kind wanted to point out his hypocritical nature with the Iraq comment, since that was somewhat similar too, what we did in Iraq.
 
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You do realize it want (sic) really considered a war crime as it wasn't a part of the war.
After the war, Henry Wirz, commandant of the inner stockade at Camp Sumter, was tried by a military tribunal on charges of conspiracy and murder. The trial was presided over by Union General Lew Wallace and featured chief Judge Advocate General (JAG) prosecutor Norton Parker Chipman.[citation needed]
A number of former prisoners testified on conditions at Andersonville, many accusing Wirz of specific acts of cruelty, for some of which Wirz was not even present in the camp. The court also considered official correspondence from captured Confederate records. Perhaps the most damaging was a letter to the Confederate surgeon general by Dr. James Jones, who in 1864 was sent by Richmond to investigate conditions at Camp Sumter.[26] Jones had been appalled by what he found, having vomited twice and contracted influenza from the single hour he'd toured the camp and his graphically detailed report to his superiors all but closed the case for the prosecution. Wirz presented evidence that he'd pleaded to Confederate authorities to try to get more food and tried to improve the conditions for the prisoners inside.[citation needed]
Wirz was found guilty and was sentenced to death, and on November 10, 1865, he was hanged. Wirz was the only Confederate official to be tried and convicted of war crimes resulting from the Civil War (but see reference to Champ Ferguson). The revelation of the prisoners' sufferings was one of the factors that shaped public opinion in the North regarding the South after the close of the Civil War.



But beyond this, the point is that anyone complaining about the war crimes of Sherman from a Southern perspective doesn't have a leg to stand on since the context is that the Confederacy was engaging in the maintaining and expansion of human slavery.
 
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