• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?

Gun Control? Republicans or Democrats seen as more "Rational" by American Public?


  • Total voters
    10

Unaffiliated

Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
32
Reaction score
14
Location
Denver Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Who do you think the American Public see's as more rational on gun control in America? Republicans or Democrats?
 
While I disagree with the Democrats on gun control the types of laws they have proposed, at the federal level, are not opposed by most Americans. Most Americans seem to be ok with more thorough background check, waiting periods, and limiting high capacity magazines. I don't think such laws will have any effect but most Americans find such laws rational and reasonable.
 
It does matter. That's like saying you don't care if your door is locked at night.

my door being locked or not is an observable and objective fact.... the public opinion of that rationality of a political party on a specific issue is not, in any way, objective.

ya might as well just say " which is your favorite party?"... you'll get the same answers.
 
my door being locked or not is an observable and objective fact.... the public opinion of that rationality of a political party on a specific issue is not, in any way, objective.

ya might as well just say " which is your favorite party?"... you'll get the same answers.

Yea. You might as well have just asked do you lean right or left.

To be honest, both sides make rational arguments until you get to the extreme and illogical of either sides. My opinion is guns are not the problem, people are. America is divided along all sorts of lines and every side, race, belief seems to try and make people believe that are under attack in various ways creating the divisions and extremists. The divide in America is the problem. No matter how many gun laws get passed or revoked, it won't have any impact as long as people are hell bent on killing "the enemy".
 
It does matter. That's like saying you don't care if your door is locked at night.

Well in my case it doesn't, sometimes I don't lock my doors.
 
During the push for background checks on gun sales after the Sandy Hook School tragedy, I saw figures as high as in the 80 percentiles in favor - yet the NRA got the GOP to defeat the measure.

So in that particular facet at least, I'd say the Dems had the pulse of the average American far beyond that of the GOP.
 
Who do you think the American Public see's as more rational on gun control in America? Republicans or Democrats?

Ha!, none of the above. Democrats blame inanimate objects and ignore the person. Republicans blame Democrats for being the likely political lean of the shooter, and/or blame violent video games and rap music. Either way, they are both way off the mark and not likely to legislate a damn thing that impacts mass shootings in this nation.
 
While I disagree with the Democrats on gun control the types of laws they have proposed, at the federal level, are not opposed by most Americans. Most Americans seem to be ok with more thorough background check, waiting periods, and limiting high capacity magazines. I don't think such laws will have any effect but most Americans find such laws rational and reasonable.

Unlike laws mandating that any new cars sold get better fuel mileage or produce less emissions, magazine capacity laws seek to make legally purchased and owned existing products illegal to keep/own. The same is true with "registration" which seeks to make private gun sales/transfers impossible to be legal. Would you support a law that requires all used vehicle sales to involve a "certified" car dealer?

The 2A is a compound right - it is a right to keep and bear arms. Many laws now seek to make the two rights separate with many more hoops to jump through (and more fees/taxes to pay) to legally carry a handgun that is currently 100% legal to buy and keep. Violation of traffic laws may prevent one from legally driving (result in suspension or revocation of one's driver's license) but they never demand the involuntary transfer (or surrender) of one's legally owned (and parked) vehicle.

It is also curious that you would support new (and expensive) gun laws that will likely not have any effect.
 
Last edited:
If you actually understand the issue-Republicans

if you are a Sheeple and don't really understand what motivates gun control-you probably think the Dems are more in favor of public safety

but that is why the Dems often lose. They have weak levels of support by people who really aren't informed or really care-while the GOP has people who take this issue seriously

Its why Clinton brayed that most people supported his idiotic gun laws and then his party got its collective ass handed to it in 1994: Clinton admitted his gun bans was the main reason why the Dems lost control of both houses
 
Gun control laws do nothing to stop crime or mass shootings. The problem isn't the guns themselves, something many left of center fail to grasp.
 

Attachments

  • uploadfromtaptalk1434770150179.jpg
    uploadfromtaptalk1434770150179.jpg
    35.9 KB · Views: 1,059
During the push for background checks on gun sales after the Sandy Hook School tragedy, I saw figures as high as in the 80 percentiles in favor - yet the NRA got the GOP to defeat the measure.

So in that particular facet at least, I'd say the Dems had the pulse of the average American far beyond that of the GOP.

Trusting loaded polls is never a good idea. Are you claiming the outcry from constituents played no role whatsoever? :roll:
 
Gun control laws do nothing to stop crime or mass shootings. The problem isn't the guns themselves, something many left of center fail to grasp.

gun control laws-or at least to those lead the effort to pass them-are not designed to control crime but to harass gun owners. The Hughes Amendment is proof of that.
 
Gun control laws do nothing to stop crime or mass shootings. The problem isn't the guns themselves, something many left of center fail to grasp.

But the complete nationwide ban of recreational drugs is so successful. ;)

If we made "crime tools" illegal it would surely stop crime. ;)
 
Gun control laws do nothing to stop crime or mass shootings. The problem isn't the guns themselves, something many left of center fail to grasp.

Why does America have so many more mentally disturbed people that don't care about the law than any other country?

Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again.

No so bold prediction: This will happen again if we continue to treat it like every other one of the umpteen mass shootings that we have experienced in the last few decades.
 
Democrats identify the problem of gun violence, which is a huge problem, and choose to address it by restricting gun rights instead. Republicans oppose gun control, and during the Sandy Hook mess they were calling for mental healthcare as the solution, but then when congress actually talks about mental healthcare, they oppose any form of public healthcare or expanded mental healthcare programs. I don't like either position.

I actually agree with RedAkston, in that expanded access to mental healthcare is the proper response to gun violence, not inane gun bans and excessive restrictions on gun ownership.
 
Why does America have so many more mentally disturbed people that don't care about the law than any other country?

Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again.

No so bold prediction: This will happen again if we continue to treat it like every other one of the umpteen mass shootings that we have experienced in the last few decades.

Of course this will continue. Mass shootings are increasing...

It's not just a perception: Mass shootings have become more frequent, data show - LA Times

If it seems like mass shootings are becoming more common, researchers say there's a good reason: They are.
Between a 2011 shooting at an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, Nev., that left four people dead and the 2013 attack on the Washington Navy Yard where 12 people were killed, a mass shooting occurred somewhere in America once every 64 days, on average.
In the preceding 29 years, such shootings occurred on average every 200 days, according to an analysis by researchers from Harvard University's School of Public Health and Northeastern University.
 
Why does America have so many more mentally disturbed people that don't care about the law than any other country?

We don't.

Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again.

Well a few reasons....

Australia has a much smaller population which translates into far fewer firearms to begin with. Australia had no 2nd amendment guaranteeing them the right to firearms. You are trying to compare apples to kiwi.

In Australia a 2014 Stabbing attack left 8 children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. A 37 year old woman also found injured. The woman was later charged with the murder of the children, 7 of whom were hers, plus her niece.

8 children dead with a knife. Where there is a will there is a way.

No so bold prediction: This will happen again if we continue to treat it like every other one of the umpteen mass shootings that we have experienced in the last few decades.

Well please instead of making useless prophetic statements which get us no place. Please tell us what new laws will stop it?
 
Who do you think the American Public see's as more rational on gun control in America? Republicans or Democrats?

Wow, that a messed up question. You don't want my opinion of what is more rational, you want my opinion on what I think the majority opinion is across America?

Do you mean dem/rep politicians, or dem/rep voters? I see neither as rational as rational, but for vastly different reasons.
 
We don't.

We do have more mass murders than any other developed country. We also have a higher homicide rate (especially for black people).

Well a few reasons....

Australia has a much smaller population which translates into far fewer firearms to begin with. Australia had no 2nd amendment guaranteeing them the right to firearms. You are trying to compare apples to kiwi.

In Australia a 2014 Stabbing attack left 8 children aged 18 months to 15 years killed. A 37 year old woman also found injured. The woman was later charged with the murder of the children, 7 of whom were hers, plus her niece.

8 children dead with a knife. Where there is a will there is a way.

Woosh.

I'm not comparing the US to Australia. I'm comparing Australia to itself, whereby it has seen a decrease in mass killings since passing the gun law. The graph specifically states that mass shootings are caused by crazy people. If that's the case, then the decrease in mass shootings since in Australia since 1996 can only mean that gun laws reduce the amount of crazy people in a country.

(preemptive sidenote, before anyone points me towards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_mass_murders as evidence that mass murders happen with the same frequency after the law was passed in 1996, note that the list there accounts for other causes such as arson after 1996, but only shootings before 1996, ignoring incidents like the Whiskey Au Go Go fire in Brisbane or "the Downunder Hostel fire in Sydney- It's a crappy source).

Well please instead of making useless prophetic statements which get us no place. Please tell us what new laws will stop it?

That's a great question. Specifically, I don't know. But here's a couple of areas where we can start. Laws that address:

1) The systemic racism problem we face in America that ooh, say, ~50% of the population does not even acknowledge exists.
2) A society that stigmatizes mental illness.
3) A healthcare system that actively discourages preventative care, that leaves its users destitute and in debt.
4) A corporatocracy that gives workers as little as humanly possible in jobs that take upwards of 40-70+ hrs a week of their lives.

and maybe 5 could be something to do with gun control.

Right now, people's answer to shootings like this is to blame it on crazy people. Often to move the conversation away from gun control. Unfortunately 'crazy people' simply doesn't cut it as an explanation when it is happening with frighteningly frequent occurrence. If we continue to refuse to discuss guns as a potential issue then lets at least move onto some of the other potential causes rather than just sweeping the whole thing under the rug as down to a few bad eggs. At this stage it's painfully clear that it's not just 'a few bad eggs' and our ignorance of this is quite literally proving fatal.

Disclaimer on guns: Personally, I do believe that gun control would help the situation, but I also recognize that gun control is not a perfect solution, nor is it really pragmatic and feasible solution in the US.
 
We do have more mass murders than any other developed country. We also have a higher homicide rate (especially for black people).

Yes we do. When you have an oppressed minority these things tend to happen. If you look at the rates, only a few cities drive us up among the world's nations like Chicago and Detroit. Take away just those two and the US numbers drop drastically. If we drop the useless war on drugs it would drop even more.


That is not true. Let me explain why below.

I'm not comparing the US to Australia. I'm comparing Australia to itself, whereby it has seen a decrease in mass killings since passing the gun law. The graph specifically states that mass shootings are caused by crazy people. If that's the case, then the decrease in mass shootings since in Australia since 1996 can only mean that gun laws reduce the amount of crazy people in a country.

Again this is irrelevant for EXACTLY the reasons I stated.

Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again. - Nilly

This is a direct comparison to the US. Otherwise it was unnecessary and does not apply in any way.


That's a great question. Specifically, I don't know. But here's a couple of areas where we can start. Laws that address:

1) The systemic racism problem we face in America that ooh, say, ~50% of the population does not even acknowledge exists.
2) A society that stigmatizes mental illness.
3) A healthcare system that actively discourages preventative care, that leaves its users destitute and in debt.
4) A corporatocracy that gives workers as little as humanly possible in jobs that take upwards of 40-70+ hrs a week of their lives.

and maybe 5 could be something to do with gun control.

Right now, people's answer to shootings like this is to blame it on crazy people. Often to move the conversation away from gun control. Unfortunately 'crazy people' simply doesn't cut it as an explanation when it is happening with frighteningly frequent occurrence. If we continue to refuse to discuss guns as a potential issue then lets at least move onto some of the other potential causes rather than just sweeping the whole thing under the rug as down to a few bad eggs. At this stage it's painfully clear that it's not just 'a few bad eggs' and our ignorance of this is quite literally proving fatal.

Disclaimer on guns: Personally, I do believe that gun control would help the situation, but I also recognize that gun control is not a perfect solution, nor is it really pragmatic and feasible solution in the US.

Gun control is not the solution Would 10 round magazines have stopped the 9 getting killed? No. Would a background check have stopped the father from giving the weapons to the son? No. Would a "gun free zone" have stopped him? Well no as it was a gun free zone.

He was a crazy person given a gun by someone else. The first 4 things you mentioned would be a good start. The gun control thing is the real waste of everyone's time.
 
I don't know about the rest of America, but here's how I see it.

Liberals are more emotional about it. They see things like Sandy Hook happen, and they're outraged. They want to do something so badly, they don't necessarily stop to consider whether what they want to do is logical.
Conservatives are more coldly logical about it. The 2nd amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, so the occasional shooting is part of "the cost of doing business". That doesn't mean it doesn't upset them, but they don't allow it to drive their thinking as much.

Doesn't mean either side is right or wrong, just how I see the thinking going.
 
Yes we do. When you have an oppressed minority these things tend to happen. If you look at the rates, only a few cities drive us up among the world's nations like Chicago and Detroit. Take away just those two and the US numbers drop drastically. If we drop the useless war on drugs it would drop even more.



That is not true. Let me explain why below.



Again this is irrelevant for EXACTLY the reasons I stated.

Also, as an aside, why did Australia see such a decline in mass shootings once they banned guns? Does banning guns also cause the number of mentally disturbed people who don't care about laws to drop? I don't know if gun control is the answer, but waving tragedies off as just being down to 'some whacko' is becoming a tiring rhetoric. We have a problem, and whatever the cause is, it's time to stop just putting this down to 'just another disturbed kook', letting the story fade into the background, and then the same thing happening again. - Nilly

This is a direct comparison to the US. Otherwise it was unnecessary and does not apply in any way.




Gun control is not the solution Would 10 round magazines have stopped the 9 getting killed? No. Would a background check have stopped the father from giving the weapons to the son? No. Would a "gun free zone" have stopped him? Well no as it was a gun free zone.

He was a crazy person given a gun by someone else. The first 4 things you mentioned would be a good start. The gun control thing is the real waste of everyone's time.

Ok you are clearly not getting my point. Did I bring up background checks or high capacity mags? I know my lean is progressive but I'm not here to argue for gun control. I know if all you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like nails but jeez.

Mass murders are not simply because of crazy people.

This is demonstrably true because in parts of the world we see decreases in mass murders when factors that have no effect on the amount of crazy people are put into place (such as Australias 1996 firearm law).

To say that mass murders are just because some people are born crazy is to do a massive disservice to the issue at hand. We essentially wipe our hands clean of the issue, putting the cause (and thereby the solution) out of our hands. In reality mass murders are caused by a variety of issues, from illness to poverty to racism to access to guns. It's clear from other countries that things can be done to reduce the amount of mass murders a country has. If that were not the case, why do other countries have a lower rate of mass murders than the US? Protip: It is not because they have less crazy people than the US. It's because they run their countries in a way that make mass murders less likely by tackling a wide variety of issues.

My problem, and my frustration (which I'm venting out on to you, probably unfairly) is based on the fact that even if we discount gun control from the debate entirely, we are still a big fat 0% of the way to addressing the other possible causes for mass shootings such as the one we just had. Many are quick to blame mental illness, but suggest reform to our healthcare system??? No no no, far too expensive, let the free market sort it out. A large proportion of Americans (even many of the smart ones) can't even acknowledge that a racism problem exists at all in our country (even though the state where the shooting happened, SC, still adulates racism/racists). And whole swathes can't seem to be able to acknowledge that while we live in supposedly the most advanced country in the world, the majority of our people are overstressed, overworked and underpaid.

If gun control isn't the answer, then lets at least get started on fixing the other issues that could y'know, maybe have an affect on why our country is filled with so much more hatred/apathy than any other developed nation. Just sitting back, calling it mental illness and being done with it is not the answer.
 
Last edited:
Trusting loaded polls is never a good idea. Are you claiming the outcry from constituents played no role whatsoever? :roll:
I'm saying the money & power of the special interest puppeteers, that control their Congressional puppets, often exceeds the will of the people. Not always; not absolutely; but often enough. Too often. (I would submit even once, is too much - I find it difficult to believe our forefathers designed a system of government for sale to the highest bidder)
 
Back
Top Bottom