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Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?[W:51***]

Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

  • Yes, we screwed it up, and we're going to pay a heavy price)

    Votes: 28 45.9%

  • They asked for it!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • It wasn't just us, we had help.

    Votes: 14 23.0%

  • No, it would have come to this point even without our involvement.

    Votes: 10 16.4%

  • Other.

    Votes: 9 14.8%
  • Total voters
    61
  • Poll closed .
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

chromium said:
so they should be ruled by us approved candidates, and the us military? Iraq has proven incapable of self-government. They can't even defend their 2nd biggest city against a few thousand insurgents.
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The people of Iraq have been the victims of genocide, institutionalized rape, mass killings and other atrocities of a madman for generations. A society so debilitated in regard to physical, intellectual and social capital cannot be expected to simply "rise up" in a generation.

As to people having influence over government, often times they don't know what's good for them, or tyranny of the majority rules and some minority gets trampled on. People are never united to be able to act in strictly mutually beneficial ways
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In the case of Iraq, it was not simply a "minority" that was trampled. Saddam obliterated social capital across the board and left the people staggering in the dark. His damage will require generations to overcome.


It's embarrassingly naive to believe such debilitated people can simply overthrow such a tyrant, or that they can recover in just a few years.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

The Middle East is not the Holy Land but the Devils Play Ground. There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as 2 or more people live there. Cane killed Able and the killing hasn't stopped in recorded history. Even God has been unsuccessful in straightening that hell hole out. He flooded the earth, destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, and even sent his son down to try to help out. They nailed him to a cross. It is hopeless and nothing we do or not do will help those people or stop the insanity that is the Middle East.

From the movie Aliens.
I say we nuke it from space and kill every last person there. It is the only way to be sure.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
The people of Iraq have been the victims of genocide, institutionalized rape, mass killings and other atrocities of a madman for generations. A society so debilitated in regard to physical, intellectual and social capital cannot be expected to simply "rise up" in a generation.

In the case of Iraq, it was not simply a "minority" that was trampled. Saddam obliterated social capital across the board and left the people staggering in the dark. His damage will require generations to overcome.


It's embarrassingly naive to believe such debilitated people can simply overthrow a such tyrant.
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The actions of one autocratic ruler cannot reflect on every reign by a monarch or unelected governing body, just like george bush II's reign doesn't mean every president ever was a moron.

As to iraqi well-being, most estimates i've seen put civilian casualties due to the american invasion at 100,000. That doesn't sound much better than hussein's rule

It won't be overcome because they are in many ways not interested. That region has never cared about things like 'democracy' nor about equality. They will still carry out executions for daring to offend islam and keep women and gays subservient and so on, because *that's how their culture is*. A lot of the oppression existed well before hussein too
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

chromium said:
The actions of one autocratic ruler cannot reflect on every reign by a monarch or unelected governing body, just like george bush II's reign doesn't mean every president ever was a moron.
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Your lack of respect for the office of US president is reflected in your outlandish assessment of US actions.

It won't be overcome because they are in many ways not interested.
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That you claim a people are incapable of governing themselves belays a disgusting hate for others. Your belief is like that of colonialists, 100 years late and thus without excuse.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
Your lack of respect for the office of US president is reflected in your outlandish assessment of US actions.
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I was born after politics had rendered the office incapable of accomplishing much of value. No one my age respects the presidency. That's why shows like "veep" have taken over from "west wing." Politicians are a joke to us.

However, i could be 80 and find the deaths of 100,000 iraqis to not be in the best interest of iraqis.

ecofarm said:
That you claim a people are incapable of governing themselves belays a disgusting hate for others. Your belief is like that of colonialists, 100 years late and thus without excuse.
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Again, i have only seen the dumbest **** out of voter ballots and elected office in my lifetime. I have a high regard for some people. If voting was restricted to an educated and informed elite, i might be more in favor, but no, i do not think the 1/3 americans who can't identify a single branch of government should be able to vote. They just aren't qualified, and it brings the rest of us down with them.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

:screwy
 
:roll:
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
That's a sick belief, Unabomber/whacko level material that denies empathy in humans. How someone becomes so disconnected from one's fellow man as to believe such is, gratefully, beyond me. One can only hold such a perspective from a dark and terrifying hole, and I feel pity.
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I'm not going to suggest that the ME would have been some kind of haven if we did not intervene, but the acts undertaken by the west in the M.E. pretty clearly reveal that arabic oil has been more important to us than arabic people.

EDIT: Would just like to say that I feel my sentiments are corroborated by some of the despicable things people post on this very forum and in this very thread. I wish I could say that post 77 was anomalous but it's really a very common thoguht about the middle east. I guess if you searched "nuke" and "middle east" throughout the forum there would be a very uncomfortable number of results.

PIPEWRENCH said:
I say we nuke it from space and kill every last person there. It is the only way to be sure.
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Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Nilly said:
EDIT: Would just like to say that I feel my sentiments are corroborated by some of the despicable things people post on this very forum and in this very thread.
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This place is clearly a nuthouse. Let's not project its ravings upon society at large, it's not representative.

You need to recognize that those in office have empathy and want what's best for people, as do the people of the Western world (the entire world, for that matter, tyrants and other nutbags aside). They're not evil monsters, they're people like you an I. Dehumanizing democratic governments is pathetic nonsense.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
This place is clearly a nuthouse. Let's not project its ravings upon society at large, it's not representative.

You need to recognize that those in office have empathy and want what's best for people, as do the people of the Western world (the entire world, for that matter, tyrants and other nutbags aside). They're not evil monsters, they're people like you an I. Dehumanizing democratic governments is pathetic nonsense.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. People like you and I buy products that were manufactured by preteen children (essentially slaves) in sweatshops. People like you and I run companies that contract those sweatshops. People like you and I would rather that gas prices fell by 10c than worry about what happened in the middle east (or South America) to cause that drop.

I do believe that the government and most people in the west are well-intentioned, but often our empathy only extends as far as we can see. Not much further.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Nilly said:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. People like you and I buy products that were manufactured by preteen children (essentially slaves) in sweatshops. People like you and I run companies that contract those sweatshops. People like you and I would rather that gas prices fell by 10c than worry about what happened in the middle east (or South America) to cause that drop.

I do believe that the government and most people in the west are well-intentioned, but often our empathy only extends as far as we can see. Not much further.
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Well, I support a rise in gas price. Always have. I'm sure we could find posts from years ago saying such.

Anyway, that's a far cry from:

the US (and the west in general) has had absolutely zero interest in the long term stability in the M.E. or the wellbeing of its people.
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Better check your rhetoric before you appear to be a sociopath projecting. Your complete denial of empathy therein is not much different than calling for nukes; either way, a group of people are deemed subhuman.
 
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Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Nilly said:
I'm not going to suggest that the ME would have been some kind of haven if we did not intervene, but the acts undertaken by the west in the M.E. pretty clearly reveal that arabic oil has been more important to us than arabic people.

EDIT: Would just like to say that I feel my sentiments are corroborated by some of the despicable things people post on this very forum and in this very thread. I wish I could say that post 77 was anomalous but it's really a very common thoguht about the middle east. I guess if you searched "nuke" and "middle east" throughout the forum there would be a very uncomfortable number of results.
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I was poking fun with my post. However I think the Middle East could easily still be centuries away from peace.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

DaveFagan said:
The US, via NATO, screwed up Libya. We are funding, arming and training Islamic "moderate" fundamentalists. That started with OBL, and continues in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Chechnya, and who knows where else. USA money and arms and training keeps the Syrian debacle afire, keeps the Iraq debacle afire, created the Libya fire and our arms support the Yemen fire. Good money in war, don't ya' know?
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Big profits for the arms and related industries. No wonder the world hates America. It no longer is what it was. Sadly, this country will pay for it big time coupled with weak and incompetent leaders. Like at the end of the Roman empire when all it could produce were weak emperors unable to stem the tide of history. This is where America is coming into.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

It isn't that the U.S. as a nation and her people have an interest in destabilizing the ME, but rather that the Establishment has a vested interest in destabilization in general.

Crisis creates opportunity; enemies create angst among the masses, which allows them to be manipulated... if these things do not exist on their own, it only makes sense that the Establishment would do everything in their power to create those conditions.

It is why the Establishment, i.e. the central bankers and blue bloods who control most of our money and institutions installed the communists in Russia and China. It is why, after WW II the U.S. intelligence agencies (which do the bidding of the Establishment) embarked upon Operation Gladio and knowingly facilitated terrorist acts that killed hundreds if not thousands of innocent Europeans. It is why our government, to this day engages in false flag events to rile the masses.

It is why the dollar is being destabilized, it is why the debt is being run up, etc... there is much more to come.

It's sad that the vast majority of people can't see how they are being lied to or being manipulated, but the writing is on the wall - all one need do is take their rose colored glasses off and look at things objectively. Given the constant drumbeat of indoctrination and misinformation, that is not likely to ever happen though.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

sawdust said:
Mistake number one. Bush should not have invaded Iraq.

Mistake number two. Everything Obama has done in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Yemen.
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Signs of the times. The US has produced for some time weak and incompetent leaders.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

wist43 said:
It isn't that the U.S. as a nation and her people have an interest in destabilizing the ME, but rather that the Establishment has a vested interest in destabilization in general.

Crisis creates opportunity; enemies create angst among the masses, which allows them to be manipulated... if these things do not exist on their own, it only makes sense that the Establishment would do everything in their power to create those conditions.

It is why the Establishment, i.e. the central bankers and blue bloods who control most of our money and institutions installed the communists in Russia and China. It is why, after WW II the U.S. intelligence agencies (which do the bidding of the Establishment) embarked upon Operation Gladio and knowingly facilitated terrorist acts that killed hundreds if not thousands of innocent Europeans. It is why our government, to this day engages in false flag events to rile the masses.

It is why the dollar is being destabilized, it is why the debt is being run up, etc... there is much more to come.

It's sad that the vast majority of people can't see how they are being lied to or being manipulated, but the writing is on the wall - all one need do is take their rose colored glasses off and look at things objectively. Given the constant drumbeat of indoctrination and misinformation, that is not likely to ever happen though.
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Another conspiracy theory. Who makes up the "establishment?"
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Removing an evil dictator from power such as Saddam Insane I mean Hussein is always the right answer. Believing we could instill Western ideology on those people was insane as well.

We may have freed the slaves in this country in the 1860's but 100 years later a look at the race riots in the south tells you change takes centuries not years.

The answer is always the same, only the people willing to fight and die for freedom and a better life will achieve it. You cannot give it to anyone and when the people lose the desire to fight and die for it they will lose it.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
Well, I support a rise in gas price. Always have. I'm sure we could find posts from years ago saying such.

Anyway, that's a far cry from:



Better check your rhetoric before you appear to be a sociopath projecting. Your complete denial of empathy therein is not much different than calling for nukes; either way, a group of people are deemed subhuman.
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Ok I did employ some hyperbole and there isn't a complete lack of empatht, but I still stand by the statement that western governments have had no qualms in meddling in the affairs of the ME for personal gain whilst practically ignoring the wellbeing of the people out there.

Of course to a western government the life of their own citizen will be worth more than the life of a foreign one, but when our governments have been valuing the lives of middle eastern citizens far lower than they should be.

PIPEWRENCH said:
I was poking fun with my post. However I think the Middle East could easily still be centuries away from peace.
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I'm glad to hear that, although unfortunately for some that's not the case.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

PIPEWRENCH said:
The answer is always the same, only the people willing to fight and die for freedom and a better life will achieve it. You cannot give it to anyone and when the people lose the desire to fight and die for it they will lose it.
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Fighting for it is not always an option. It's not like the American Revolution when peasants had the same weapons as tyrants. If England had modern WMDs, we'd never have stood a chance. Today, such people must be assisted as a matter of moral obligation.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

Glowpun said:
Another conspiracy theory. Who makes up the "establishment?"
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How do you explain Operation Gladio??

Western intelligence agencies killing innocent European civilians?? Sound like good "foreign policy" to you??

Or is this news to you??
 
Well, the colonial powers messed up before the US got seriously involved. But I suspect that much of this was going to happen anyway as monarchial autocratic rule falls under modern advances in communication, transportation, science, and assorted global forces. Clash of competing social forces. Europe went through similar problems in the 19th and 20 century and millions died. What would you expect to happen when individuals become more powerful through modern means? When charismatic leaders can convince so many followers that their way is the right way.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

ecofarm said:
Fighting for it is not always an option. It's not like the American Revolution when peasants had the same weapons as tyrants. If England had modern WMDs, we'd never have stood a chance. Today, such people must be assisted as a matter of moral obligation.
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England was a super power at the start of the revolution and we had no chance of winning. Once France saw we were willing to go the distance they turned the tide in our favor. We clearly had WMDs during the Vietnam war and the USSR had WMDs in the Afghan war and yet neither super power one against two of the poorest countries at the time. While Vietnam and Afghanistan had help it was the willingness of the people to fight and die that allowed them to prevail.

Just as Rome fell so will we. We will be destroyed from within just as our forefathers predicted. Once we have lost the willingness to fight and die for our rights and freedom a corrupt government will rise up from within and take them away from us.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

PIPEWRENCH said:
England was a super power at the start of the revolution and we had no chance of winning. Once France saw we were willing to go the distance they turned the tide in our favor. We clearly had WMDs during the Vietnam war and the USSR had WMDs in the Afghan war and yet neither super power one against two of the poorest countries at the time. While Vietnam and Afghanistan had help it was the willingness of the people to fight and die that allowed them to prevail.
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In Vietnam, our hands were tied by the decency expected of a free nation. In Afghan, the Soviets were defeated by US equipment. In neither case do we have an example of a vastly more powerful tyrant subduing a helpless people. Even your example of the American Revolution demonstrates the need for help when a people are put upon by a powerful tyrant.

But you expect others to go it alone? How does that even make sense given that you acknowledge the need for help?

Just as Rome fell so will we. We will be destroyed from within just as our forefathers predicted. Once we have lost the willingness to fight and die for our rights and freedom a corrupt government will rise up from within and take them away from us.
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That's Chicken Little crap motivated by a hate of others, and a gross misrepresentation of forefathers' words. I ain't skeered; you can take the fear-mongering elsewhere.
 
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Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

I did not say they had to go alone. We were helped by the French, Vietnam had help from USSR and China, and Afghanistan had help from the USA. We removed as evil dictator and one of the largest armies in the world from Iraq. The people did not rise up against Saddam and fight for their freedom. They are not willing to fight and die for their freedom and so they will not attain it. ISSI or some one else will always take their freedom away from them until they are ready and willing to fight for it.
That is the facts like it or not. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let him. Thats reality.
 
Re: Have we (the US) screwed up the Middle East?

PIPEWRENCH said:
The people did not rise up against Saddam and fight for their freedom.
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Kurds did, genocide to the tune of 200k.

Marsh Arabs did, genocide to the tune of 50k.

They are not willing to fight and die for their freedom and so they will not attain it. ISSI or some one else will always take their freedom away from them until they are ready and willing to fight for it.
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Iraq is fighting ISIS.

That is the facts like it or not. A bully can only push around a large group of people if they let him. Thats reality.
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That's not facts, it's flat-out BS. Learn basic history and current events.
 
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