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Is Slavery Always Wrong All of the Time?

Is slavery always wrong all of the time?

  • Yes. It's always wrong.

    Votes: 34 77.3%
  • Forced labor is appropriate under some circumstances.

    Votes: 8 18.2%
  • I can't decide. I'm a human tower of jello. Lead me around like the sheep i am.

    Votes: 2 4.5%

  • Total voters
    44

Peter Grimm

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We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?
 
Slavery in and of itself is the process of marginalizing people and turning them into property to be sold, and used for someone else's benefit. Aside from being wildly immoral and unconstitutional, this is a first century idea that should stay in the first century.
 
I don't consider any of those slavery. 1,3, and 4 are just penal labor and are explicitly distinguished from slavery in the 13th Amendment for instance. I can support various forms of it depending on conditions.

#2 seems to be just advocating reducing benefits and requiring some other sort of income than welfare.

I can think of no occasion where actual slavery is not wrong all the time.
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

1 it's called penal labour and I it already exist

2 yes make the person into a literal slave for the government and take jobs from people who actually want them :roll:

3 child labor laws

4 once again penal labour
 
I don't consider any of those slavery. 1,3, and 4 are just penal labor and are explicitly distinguished from slavery in the 13th Amendment for instance. I can support various forms of it depending on conditions.

#2 seems to be just advocating reducing benefits and requiring some other sort of income than welfare.

I can think of no occasion where actual slavery is not wrong all the time.

Slavery is any form of forced labor. Don't let semantics cloud your judgement.
 
1 it's called penal labour and I it already exist

2 yes make the person into a literal slave for the government and take jobs from people who actually want them :roll:

3 child labor laws

4 once again penal labour

Penile labor is the same thing as slavery.
 
We're all indoctrinated to believe, especially here in America, that slavery is evil and wrong, and should be illegal 100% of the time no matter what.

Not one to blindly follow what I'm taught, I thought about it for a while, and, while 99% of the time, slavery is wrong, I can make a case that sometimes, it's justified.



Now let me make one point before people get their panties in a bunch: I'm not advocating race-based slavery (take off your USA glasses, slavery throughout most of human history has not been based on race). I believe that all people are created equal and that everyone should be given equal opportunity to succeed and to pursue life, liberty, and happiness.


That said.... what happens when someone screws up? Here are some examples of people who I think could justifiably be forced to work for someone else:

1.) The nonviolent career criminal. Rather than pay to house and feed him and put him through "crime school" (ie jail), he should be forced in to providing productive labor.

2.) The welfare queen. Rather than give money away to people who would rather sit and collect money and live off the government tit, shouldn't they be forced to earn their keep like the rest of us?

3.) The juvenile delinquent. Rather than put them through "crime school" (ie jail), some forced labor and discipline could do these kids good.

4.) The white collar criminal. Run a ponzi scheme? Cheat on your taxes? Make them pick oranges in the California sun for a few years. That'll make white collar criminals think twice.



I'll leave it at that for now. What are your thoughts?

None of what you've outlined equates to justifiable slavery. The welfare queen is the only character among your scenarios who has not committed a crime. Therefore, why should she be "enslaved" simply because someone doesn't like the fact that she was deemed (repeatedly) eligible to receive those welfare benefits? All others you've characterized above should do their penance accordingly as the law dictates. Now, if that penance involves making small rocks out of big ones, pressing license plates, harvesting crops on the corporate farm, repaving roads or digging ditches, then so be it. That's part of forfeiting your right to live among a peaceful, law abiding society. But I wouldn't call this slavery. I'd call it imprisonment. No one owns them; they're just locked away from society for the crimes they've committed until time served (less a life sentence or the death penalty).

Now, as a Black man do I believe slavery should never be allowed? I have to say yes. I'm against the ownership of anyone as property. However, I can see where indentured servitude can work because it's no different than being a contract employee only instead of being "hired" to perform a specific task (or tasks), you perform any task assigned to you for the agreed upon timeframe at the agreed upon price. Think Joseph, for example.
 
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Slavery is any form of forced labor. Don't let semantics cloud your judgement.

Slavery is more than forced labor. It's ownership of people as property to be sold, used and abused as the slave owner sees fit. I DO NOT subscribe to this not as a man and especially not as a Black man.
 
None of what you've outlined equates to justifiable slavery. The welfare queen is the only character among your scenarios who has not committed a crime. Therefore, why should she be "enslaved" simply because someone doesn't like the fact that she was deemed (repeatedly) eligible to receive those welfare benefits? All others you've characterized above should do their penance accordingly as the law dictates. Now, if that penance involves making small rock out of big ones, pressing license plates, harvesting crops on the corporate farm, repaving roads or digging ditches, then so be it. That's part of forfeiting your right to live among a peaceful, law abiding society. But I wouldn't call this slavery. I'd call it imprisonment. No one owns them; they're just locked away from society for the crimes they've committed.

Now, as a Black man do I believe slavery should never be allowed? I have to say no. I'm against the ownership of anyone as property. However, I can see where indentured servitude can work because it's no different than being a contract employee only instead of being "hired" to perform a specific task (or tasks), you perform any task assigned to you for the agreed upon timeframe at the agreed upon price. Think Joseph, for example.

Indentured servitude is another one I forgot about, but I agree it should have its place in society as well. Actually, it's a great alternative to welfare and illegal immigration.
 
Penile labor is the same thing as slavery.

Quite true , I found it arbitrary that you mentioned that it could be used to justify using slave labor when it is already being utilized
 
Slavery is any form of forced labor. Don't let semantics cloud your judgement.

That's not true. Forced labor in prison is treated as an exception to slavery basically everywhere in the world. The dictionary definition is a system in which people are treated as property. People do not generally consider prisoners to be slaves. By practice, common usage, and definition, that is not slavery.
 
Slavery is more than forced labor. It's ownership of people as property to be sold, used and abused as the slave owner sees fit. I DO NOT subscribe to this not as a man and especially not as a Black man.

Slavery is thousands of years old and while the slavery of black people is our only real experience with it here in the USA, throughout human history most of the time, slavery has nothing to do with race.

Most of the time, if you fought on the wrong side of a war, or you owed someone a lot of money you couldn't repay, that's when you became a slave.

I'm defining slavery as any form of forced labor. People seem to be OK with it as long as it's in the prison system, just as long as you don't call it "slavery." But a spade is a spade.
 
Peter Grimm,

Just an FYI: I edited my post but not before you quoted me.

Now, as a Black man do I believe slavery should never be allowed? I have to say yes.

Just so there's no confusion on where I stand on the subject.
 
That's not true. Forced labor in prison is treated as an exception to slavery basically everywhere in the world. The dictionary definition is a system in which people are treated as property. People do not generally consider prisoners to be slaves. By practice, common usage, and definition, that is not slavery.

Semantics. A prisoner working on a chain gang or hammering out license plates is not a free man. He's not working willingly. He can't come and go as he pleases.

For all intents and purposes, he's a slave of the state.
 
Forced labor is forced labor. We call that "slavery"

Black people were put on auction blocks half naked and poked and prodded as cattle.

They were denied citizenship.

They were raped and tortured.

They were property. They had no rights.

Families were torn apart, children ripped from mothers arms on birth, and children of slaves were automatically slaves. For generation upon generation here in the US.

That is not the same thing as penal labor.
 
Slavery is thousands of years old and while the slavery of black people is our only real experience with it here in the USA, throughout human history most of the time, slavery has nothing to do with race.

Most of the time, if you fought on the wrong side of a war, or you owed someone a lot of money you couldn't repay, that's when you became a slave.

I'm defining slavery as any form of forced labor. People seem to be OK with it as long as it's in the prison system, just as long as you don't call it "slavery." But a spade is a spade.

But forced labor under the U.S. penal system isn't slavery. The prison system doesn't "own" the prisoners. They've merely been commissioned to "watch over the prisoners". Now, while it's true that the inmates do perform labor which can be extremely tedious, it's still not slavery. The warden doesn't own the inmates. The corrections officers don't own the inmates. Not even the state owns the inmates. They are still individuals with rights (as hard as it may be for some, including myself, to accept or even acknowledge), but they are not owned by anyone. I can assure you that if a corrections officers beats and inmate, HE will soon find himself behind bars. Same goes for the warden who is found to have allowed mistreatment of inmates under his supervision.

You've got it quite twisted, my friend. Please rethink your premise.
 
Some people just need to be slaves... they can't function on their own responsibly and need to be controlled.
 
But forced labor under the U.S. penal system isn't slavery. The prison system doesn't "own" the prisoners. They've merely been commissioned to "watch over the prisoners". Now, while it's true that the inmates do perform labor which can be extremely tedious, it's still not slavery. The warden doesn't own the inmates. The corrections officers don't own the inmates. Not even the state owns the inmates. They are still individuals with rights (as hard as it may be for some, including myself, to accept or even acknowledge), but they are not owned by anyone. I can assure you that if a corrections officers beats and inmate, HE will soon find himself behind bars. Same goes for the warden who is found to have allowed mistreatment of inmates under his supervision.

You've got it quite twisted, my friend. Please rethink your premise.

I didn't say the warden owns the inmates, but I would argue that the state itself owns the inmates. The inmates are not free men. They can't go home if they want to. They can't decide not to go to work on the chain gang. They can't order a pizza with their wages. Slave owners are always commissioned to "watch over" their slaves, that's how they butter up the language.
 
Semantics. A prisoner working on a chain gang or hammering out license plates is not a free man. He's not working willingly. He can't come and go as he pleases.

For all intents and purposes, he's a slave of the state.

Those three things are conditions that most slaves have but that is not what makes a slave a slave. That prisoner is not property to be bought or sold, his sentence is fixed and handed down by the government and will end so long as it is not a life sentence, he still has all the rights and liberties equal to any other person with the exception that some have been denied for a fixed period by due process of law.

Your question asking if forced labor is ever justified is an intriguing one, but equating slavery and forced labor is wrong. They are not the same thing and should not be treated that way.
 
Black people were put on auction blocks half naked and poked and prodded as cattle.

They were denied citizenship.

They were raped and tortured.

They were property. They had no rights.

Families were torn apart, children ripped from mothers arms on birth, and children of slaves were automatically slaves. For generation upon generation here in the US.

That is not the same thing as penal labor.

Right, that's called "chattel slavery," and it's just one subset of a larger concept. Chattel slavery is wrong, especially as it was practiced in the US in our early days.
 
That's why we have jails, prisons and insane asylums.

But a lot of the people I am referring to are not criminals nor are they insane... in fact, many criminals are very smart and need direction, not control.
 
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