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Do You Believe In Natural Rights?

Do You Believe in Natural Rights?

  • Yes

    Votes: 36 41.4%
  • No

    Votes: 51 58.6%

  • Total voters
    87
Of course they can. Would you like me to start citing examples of just that being done?

Sure, go ahead and cite examples of people using force to obtain something and then calling it their property. I'm always up for a laugh.

Not every forced transfer is robbery. Taxes for example are not robbery. You are free to move to a nation without them or with an inability to enforce them. I hear Somalia is kind of nice. However, this is entirely irrelevant to the notion of whether people can be made into property.

Taxation is extortion and sometimes theft.


Nope, I believe people can be made into property through force. Before that, they are simply free individuals. Once force is employed, and they submit, they cease to be free individuals and become property. Is this REALLY hard for you to get? :shrug:

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So are you saying that if an individual kept causing problems for the slave owner and refused to do as they were told that individual would not be considered the property of the slave owner? Historically, it didn't really matter if the slave fought back as regardless they were property and the slave owner could do whatever they wanted with them legally speaking.
 
Sure, go ahead and cite examples of people using force to obtain something and then calling it their property. I'm always up for a laugh.

Ummm, how do you think property is maintained if not through force? Seriously, how old are you?

Taxation is extortion and sometimes theft.

Lol, nonsense.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So are you saying that if an individual kept causing problems for the slave owner and refused to do as they were told that individual would not be considered the property of the slave owner?

Of course they would be because of all of the other components I cited earlier.

Historically, it didn't really matter if the slave fought back as regardless they were property and the slave owner could do whatever they wanted with them legally speaking.

I'm glad you finally realize that human beings can become property.
 
Ummm, how do you think property is maintained if not through force? Seriously, how old are you?

Voluntary trade. Do you rob your local grocery store regularly? No? Well then, what is it that you are doing? Clearly you can't be obtaining property since you are doing so voluntarily. lol.

Lol, nonsense.

So when the state forces me to pay property taxes or lose my house that isn't extortion? I'm pretty sure they are using threats in order to make me pay them and I'm pretty sure that is extortion.

Of course they would be because of all of the other components I cited earlier.

That's not what you just said though.

I'm glad you finally realize that human beings can become property.

I never said that people can't claim others as their property.
 
An organic law is a law or system of laws which forms the foundation of a government.

Ernest...you act as though there's some relevance ^^^^^^ to our current Constitution and Federal Code and Statues. CONGRESS clearly stated their intent for putting those 4 historical documents in the preface of these titles of law.

You are brain stuck with some strange notion as to what they actually mean in context to the way government works or how it impacts the citizen of our great nation.

You've created a fantasy that clearly works for YOU, but after 100s of posts regarding this thread and the DOI thread...you need to ask yourself why YOU aren't being supported by a much larger group of posters.
 
Ernest...you act as though there's some relevance ^^^^^^ to our current Constitution and Federal Code and Statues. CONGRESS clearly stated their intent for putting those 4 historical documents in the preface of these titles of law.

You are brain stuck with some strange notion as to what they actually mean in context to the way government works or how it impacts the citizen of our great nation.

You've created a fantasy that clearly works for YOU, but after 100s of posts regarding this thread and the DOI thread...you need to ask yourself why YOU aren't being supported by a much larger group of posters.

the organic laws of the u.s. form its foundation, and you find that natural law is part of that foundation via the laws of the u.s. ..it is impossible for ANY of you to use u.s. law to support you concepts of rights.... because to have such a law on the books would go against the very principles/ foundation of america, so not such law exist for you to make a case.


In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution.

rights are .....unwritten law
 
It was only the comparison you chose dogs vs land. Dogs are self active, while land just sits there. It's hard to stop the dog farting or put the land in the car and move to Oregon. But never mind. I was omonly musing.

Land doesn't just sit there. It is constantly in motion. There is erosion and animals and tremors and plants growing, so much natural movement of land. It may not move on its own, but plenty of stuff on it and in it moves it just the same.
 
the organic laws of the u.s. form its foundation, and you find that natural law is part of that foundation via the laws of the u.s. ..it is impossible for ANY of you to use u.s. law to support you concepts of rights.... because to have such a law on the books would go against the very principles/ foundation of america, so not such law exist for you to make a case.


In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution.

rights are .....unwritten law


Uh huh.... :coffeepap

I see you still wallowing in delusional perceptions of WHY these "HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS" were included in the "preface of these titles".

Wave your magic wand, Earnest... :tink: ...and POOF...our UNWRITTEN LAWS APPEAR IN THE CLOUDS.

Rights are unwritten, huh? :doh Yes, we get the "hocus pocus origin" that you claim. I dream about it.

Right to Privacy wasn't flying around in the air somewhere. It was an erroneous omission. That ommission was an error relative to the times.

Why the "Right to Privacy" isn't written - who knows? But the error was discovered by numerous S.C. Justices who have said: Various Amendments would collapse without Right to Privacy being an intricate part of the meaning of those Amendments. In other words, no interpretations would be accurate without such an important aspect being incorporated into the letter of the meaning of those Amendments.

It's not rocket science. If you could understand the functions of the Judicial Branch of Government, common law, and Constitutional law, all of this would be clear to you. Our judicial system wasn't complete in any sense of the word when it came into being in the late 1700s. It was a work in progress then...and it remains so today. It's malleable. It's forever changing.

Yes, the toe bone is connected to the foot bone. The foot bone is connected to the leg bone. The leg bone is connected to the hip bone. Yadda, yadda, yadda. The evolution of our system of government began centuries ago. None of what the founders did was new. They tweaked many, many ideas that came way before them. It's evolutionary thinking...not magical thinking...that brought us to where we are today with civil law.
 
Uh huh.... :coffeepap

I see you still wallowing in delusional perceptions of WHY these "HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS" were included in the "preface of these titles".

Wave your magic wand, Earnest... :tink: ...and POOF...our UNWRITTEN LAWS APPEAR IN THE CLOUDS.

USLEGAL.COM

Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/u/unwritten-law/

Unwritten Law

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

Most laws in America are written. The U.S. Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.

Much of International Law is a form of primitive unwritten law. For centuries the Rules of War governing hostilities between belligerents consisted of a body of unwritten law. While some of these rules have been codified by international bodies such as the United Nations, many have not. For example, retaliatory reprisals against acts of Terrorism by a foreign government are still governed by unwritten customs in the international community. Each nation also retains discretion in formulating a response to the aggressive acts of a neighboring state.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution. In Commercial Law the Uniform Commercial Code permits merchants to resolve legal disputes by introducing evidence of unwritten customs, practices, and usages that others in the same trade generally follow. The entire body of Common Law,
comprising cases decided by judges on matters relating to torts and contracts, among other things, is said to reflect unwritten standards that have evolved over time. In each case, however, once a court, legislature, or other government body formally adopts a standard, principle, or Maxim in writing, it ceases to be an unwritten law.

unwritten law legal definition of unwritten law
 
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USLEAGL.COM

Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

Unwritten Law Law & Legal Definition

Unwritten Law

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

Most laws in America are written. The U.S. Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.

Much of International Law is a form of primitive unwritten law. For centuries the Rules of War governing hostilities between belligerents consisted of a body of unwritten law. While some of these rules have been codified by international bodies such as the United Nations, many have not. For example, retaliatory reprisals against acts of Terrorism by a foreign government are still governed by unwritten customs in the international community. Each nation also retains discretion in formulating a response to the aggressive acts of a neighboring state.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution. In Commercial Law the Uniform Commercial Code permits merchants to resolve legal disputes by introducing evidence of unwritten customs, practices, and usages that others in the same trade generally follow. The entire body of Common Law,
comprising cases decided by judges on matters relating to torts and contracts, among other things, is said to reflect unwritten standards that have evolved over time. In each case, however, once a court, legislature, or other government body formally adopts a standard, principle, or Maxim in writing, it ceases to be an unwritten law.

unwritten law legal definition of unwritten law

You know how many times you've posted the above? This is a stone cold example of your lack of understand how civil law has evolved.

:beatdeadhorse
 
You know how many times you've posted the above? This is a stone cold example of your lack of understand how civil law has evolved.

:beatdeadhorse

it shows you cannot BUCK legal definition of unwritten law, and that rights are unwritten law , so instead you resort to posting things like this which do not rebut anything posted.

your post is a complete deflection, and just stalling.
 
it shows you cannot BUCK legal definition of unwritten law, and that rights are unwritten law , so instead you resort to posting things like this which do not rebut anything posted.

your post is a complete deflection, and just stalling.

You still don't get the evolution of civil law. You are going to cling to mythical thinking. And it's common for you to provide evidence to that.
 
You still don't get the evolution of civil law. You are going to cling to mythical thinking. And it's common for you to provide evidence to that.

i have provided my proof, the only thing you have provided you your own personal words.....i am still waiting for you to post law, showing your ideas/ concepts in american law.
 
i have provided my proof, the only thing you have provided you your own personal words.....i am still waiting for you to post law, showing your ideas/ concepts in american law.

Not playing this game with you in this thread. I've, along with many others, furnished you tons information, links, etc. Not going it again.
 
Not playing this game with you in this thread. I've, along with many others, furnished you tons information, links, etc. Not going it again.

still nothing, and thats all you will ever have, because its impossible to provide law proving your concerts, because thats is not american law....
 
Black's law 2nd

unwritten law

http://blacks.worldfreemansociety.org/2/U/u1188.jpg

Webster1828 dictionary

unwritten law

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Online Edition

Bouvier's Law Dictionary and Concise Encyclopedia, Volume 3

unwritten law

https://books.google.com/books?
id=sIWPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA3377&lpg=PA3377&dq=John+Bouvier+dictionary+for+unwritten+law&source=bl&ots=RdBJKXEtCe&sig=uE55VrT7s6mQP69BUZxNI2gEj3Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FaloVef5G8LHsQSUnoAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Bouvier%20dictionary%20for%20unwritten%20law&f=false
 
Ummm, how do you think property is maintained if not through force? Seriously, how old are you?

That's why we enact civil government. To enhance and enforce those natural rights. I read this in civics class in grade school:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed....

I'm glad you finally realize that human beings can become property.

:doh He wrote "legally speaking." There's a difference between legal rights and natural rights.
 
Nope, I believe people can be made into property through force. Before that, they are simply free individuals. Once force is employed, and they submit, they cease to be free individuals and become property. Is this REALLY hard for you to get? :shrug:

We get that people can be forced into slavery. But force does not make right. I addressed the illogical nature of that contention in Post #835.
 
You're made into a slave through force. The same way that land is made into property, the same way that dogs are made into property, the same way in which anything else is made into property. It is made into property through force.

Practically or legally speaking in a societal context that's true. Morally or ethically, never as regards to people.

Land is there for the common good. It's only by convention that we give people a perpetual property interest in land, and that's always provisional.

Animals flunk every test I can imagine when it comes to rights. Might makes right? There isn't an animal on this planet that can outrun a bullet or 00 buckshot. Duty? Reciprocity? The only duty animals seem to have is to invade my trash and crap on my grass, and since they can't read the Bible they don't know they're supposed to "Do unto others.... " Speaking of the Bible, their rights don't get much support in Genesis. Do they "own" themselves? Does a tree own itself? How about a snail? I don't see how something can own itself if it has no idea what ownership is.

I think the best answer regarding animal rights I got from a coworker today. I asked him, "Do animals have rights?" He said, "They have a right to be food and pets. But they should be treated humanely." I said, "Why is that?" "Because we're human," he replied. So what human trait is it that causes humans to believe it's wrong to torment animals? The only thing I can think of is compassion. It's certainly not because we're following the Golden Rule here. A bear will chew your ass up if given an opportunity. It's because we have traits that make us human, like compassion, that we extend legal rights to animals to not be mistreated. But in and of themselves they have no rights.

As regards to a thing, I assume a property interest in it when I exert labor into it or create it. No one has a right to steal it from me.
 
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