Would you patronize a business that discriminated against a race?

Josie said:

This is about race, not sexual orientation.

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But who other than fundamentalist Christians would be doing that either?

Josie said:

Oh, stop it right now. Jeez.

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Come on. You knew that was coming.

You can't have a thread based on blacks and whites without Eco coming in and saying blacks hating whites is not racism. He's like one of those dolls that you pull a string and it talks, and he says the same thing in every argument about this.

Just another day that ends in Y. :shrug:

And to answer your question, Josie, no, I would not knowingly patronize a business that wanted segregation. In fact, I'd picket outside their door.

Not to derail the thread topic, but although a race-discriminating business would have trouble surviving economically, I'm not sure the same can be said for businesses that openly discriminate against gays. IIRC, some such gay-discriminating businesses actually had their profits increase... at least on the short term... by being "outed" as being against homosexuals. Hobby Lobby and that big chicken franchise come to mind.

Okay, carry on. Sorry for the diversion.

Edit: Reading further, I see Josie didn't want a correlation made between race discrimination and homosexual discrimination. Again, I apologize, but still feel the post is relevant to the topic, although I won't add to that discussion.

DiAnna said:

Not to derail the thread topic, but although a race-discriminating business would have trouble surviving economically, I'm not sure the same can be said for businesses that openly discriminate against gays. IIRC, some such gay-discriminating businesses actually had their profits increase... at least on the short term... by being "outed" as being against homosexuals. Hobby Lobby and that big chicken franchise come to mind.

Okay, carry on. Sorry for the diversion.

Edit: Reading further, I see Josie didn't want a correlation made between race discrimination and homosexual discrimination. Again, I apologize, but still feel the post is relevant to the topic, although I won't add to that discussion.

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Depends on the area. Around here there's so few African Americans that they won't stand the need to ban them. I cannot say the same about Native Americans though. I know plenty of places around here that were not going to take checks from "natives" if they could help it. Practically talked with pride that late at night they get to beat off the drink ones from stores.

Didn't bother the rest of society though. No one gives a damn.

I grew up hearing the worst stuff said about Native Americans. The tension is so thick that I don't have any faith whatsoever that if given the opportunity they would do the right thing. They won't. They don't like Natives and have no reason to change.

That's why I think libertarians are naive as hell to think that the market makes men wise. It doesn't. Given the choice, it allows them to turn into brutes.

Fiddytree said:

Depends on the area. Around here there's so few African Americans that they won't stand the need to ban them. I cannot say the same about Native Americans though. I know plenty of places around here that were not going to take checks from "natives" if they could help it.

Didn't bother the rest of society though. No one gives a damn.

I grew up hearing the worst stuff said about Native Americans. The tension is so thick that I don't have any faith whatsoever that if given the opportunity they would do the right thing. They won't. They don't like Natives and have no reason to change.

That's why I think libertarians are naive as hell to think that the market makes men wise. It doesn't. Given the choice, it allows them to turn into brutes.

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I've never lived in an area where others were openly subjected to that kind of hostility and discrimination because of their race. I love you, Fiddy, but suspect I would not do well where you live.

Josie said:

If it was legal .....

If a business -- any business -- decided to put a sign in their window saying "No [insert any race here] Allowed", would you still patronize that business?

Anonymous poll.

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Peer group pressure might go in either direction. At present you would get an image problem in many places. But in the ghetto there are plenty of bars you wouldn't last, if you looked like Elvis Presley.

JohnWOlin said:

No, I remember a few years back Maurice's restaurant in South Carolina (famous for this Carolina style mustard based bbq sauce) started handing out literature at the restaurants advocating separation of race. That alone was enough to get Wal-Mart, Food Lion, etc to stop selling his sauces and for several others to boycott him and his restaurants. Really, it's just a bad business decision to even advocate for any kind of discrimination.

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It is almost always a bad business decision to break with the paradigm of the surrounding society. This is fine, when in so many cases the paradigm is right. But it is hindersome, when the paradigm has got it wrong.

jet57 said:

No I wouldn't.

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Would you stick to that decision, if the word 'Aryans' were inserted?

DiAnna said:

I've never lived in an area where others were openly subjected to that kind of hostility and discrimination because of their race. I love you, Fiddy, but suspect I would not do well where you live.

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Same here. I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people think it's OK to hate Native Americans. I don't understand it, but it's there, and it's brushed under the rug, just like other kinds of discrimination that shall not be spoken of in this thread. :lol:

a351 said:

Nope. Most wouldn't, but that's still not good enough reason to allow said discrimination, as many libertarians/conservatives would argue.

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I don't know about that. I much prefer argumentation to government coercion, where it is possible. The danger from allowing government to use force to suppress opinion is like playing with fire in the barn.

Superfly said:

Same here. I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people think it's OK to hate Native Americans. I don't understand it, but it's there, and it's brushed under the rug, just like other kinds of discrimination that shall not be spoken of in this thread. :lol:

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Yeah, I can't really wrap my brain about hatred of Native Americans. I mean, shouldn't it actually be the other way around, given history and all? Sad.

I'd need the specific example to answer, since about everything now is declared "racism" and being "racist."

An example of when I won't do business at a location is if they have a sign for a candidate I oppose. I wonder if my doing business with that company/business is somehow financing that candidate.

Josie said:

If it was legal .....

If a business -- any business -- decided to put a sign in their window saying "No [insert any race here] Allowed", would you still patronize that business?

Anonymous poll.

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Underlying your question is the assumption that when businesses discriminate, they do so overtly. The reality is that most discrimination happens covertly.

Take Denny's, for example. They had a long history of discriminating against blacks. Thing is, their white customers didn't know it.

Denny's Restaurants to Pay $54 Million in Race Bias Suits - NYTimes.com

When an employer discriminates, they don't tell the black applicants "We didn't hire you becuase you're black". The white landlord doesn't say "We won't rent to you because you're black". The white storeowner doesn't say "We purposely kept you waiting for hours and then screwed up your order on purpose because you're black"

ecofarm said:

Hating whites is not racism, it's merely racial bigotry. Racism is a social construct and minorities have no power to institute nor perpetuate majority privilege for themselves; therefore, a black hating whites is of no threat to whites collectively. Without a collective threat, it's an individual act and not an ism.

Don't get me wrong, I condemn racial bigotry by anyone. But pretending a black hating whites has the same impact on society is plain stupid.

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Except you assert there are not instance of collective hatred of whites and you assume that there are no black dominated communities and institutions - which is outright false.

I think most are aware of your total rejection of any conception of individual rights or individuality whatsoever. In your view, everyone is nothing more than one of cattle of different herds for which the only meaning of the cattle is the their color.

In my opinion and definitions, your messages are the quintessential definition of a racist and racism - the denial of the humanity, merits and rights of the individual to singularly see and measure people on in racial terms.

You also have the most degrading view possible of blacks as you demand that all are victims and without power - which is therefore you fundamentally declaring you are of the power-race and you declare all blacks are your victims.

The 1960s are dead.

The media absolutely has nearly all people totally conditioned, don't they?

WHY is everyone assuming the poll is about a white business discriminating against blacks?

What about Asian-owned businesses that only hire Asian employees? Or Latino and black small businesses that only hire those of their own race?

DiAnna said:

Yeah, I can't really wrap my brain about hatred of Native Americans. I mean, shouldn't it actually be the other way around, given history and all? Sad.

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They are a defeated people in the past and people see them as a group stuck in their problems unwilling or unable to move on. Poverty, alcoholism, and so on are real problems, but it tends to make people treat them with disrespect. All other people see these days is that alcoholism and poverty and don't treat them as human beings. They are mocked so often that you didn't have black jokes...you had native jokes instead.

There's plenty of stuff going on how we care so much for the Native American and whatever, but they are just full of it.

DiAnna said:

Yeah, I can't really wrap my brain about hatred of Native Americans. I mean, shouldn't it actually be the other way around, given history and all? Sad.

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I'll kind of tag on to what Fiddy said.

Certainly up here I've known many people who really dislike Aboriginal Canadians for various reasons.

One guy I knew from Quebec flat out HATED them because he'd been assaulted in bars a couple of times by them because they were so drunk.

Another guy out in Ontario told me there was a reserve close to his town, he was a big hockey player and loved to Referee but he would NEVER ref in the reserve because the parents and kids would often threaten referees for making a call they didn't like.

I spoke to a Night audit in Alberta, he said they had the Aboriginal hockey tournament there a few days before, they hired extra security and the guy quit after 3 hours.

He said during the tournament one guy pulled a gun on a Referee during play etc.

There's plenty of negativity out there directed towards the Aboriginal community and it's the same with Australians as well.

For me, my new job has me working closely at times with several leaders of aboriginal communities and the experience has been very positive.

The Aboriginal community has many problems and those problems have become so endemic that it's not all that surprising many associate negativity with the community as a force of habit.

All you have to do is read this article by a Native Canadian to see what I mean.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/canada/219317-hold-racist-views-native-people.html

Josie said:

Oh, stop it right now. Jeez.

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I disagree with the necessity for the distinction that people like eco bring up, however, the lack of necessity strikes both directions.

Under your model, racism is a form of bigotry which denotes the belief in the superiority of one race over the other or the disdain of one race over the other.

Under eco's model, racism is a form of bigotry which not only denotes the belief in the superiority of one race over the other, but also the social strength of those beliefs. As whites are currently a numerical majority as well as a power majority, the belief of white superiority and disdain of racial minorities would have more power than a non-white person operating under the same belief principles toward the racial majority.

Now, the strength of this observation of eco's is that it correctly posits the importance of power in a relationship, but his weakness is in not extending its relativistic qualities to other avenues of life. For instance, a white person in Harlem is not going to have the same balance of power that he would in a majority-white suburban environment.

Nevertheless, none of that truly matters for what you and everyone else get upset about. Eco's distinction is almost reduced to utter meaninglessness. He's not suggesting that racial minorities are incapable of being bigoted toward whites (such a suggestion would be mindnumbingly stupid). However, people like Eco are merely adopting the term "racism" in order to reintroduce concepts of power. The problem is that people like eco are reintroducing concepts of power that few people of worth disagree with. All they are doing is trying to morph the immediate understanding of a term. In the end, it does just about nothing constructive. It just says what anyone worth a damn would say about race relations to begin with.

In summary: People like eco aren't saying anything new or unimaginable, but you give them power by reacting so negatively. They are just linguistic trolls. It makes them feel cool and lands up being one of the hipster lines in the film Dear White People.

Josie said:

If it was legal .....

If a business -- any business -- decided to put a sign in their window saying "No [insert any race here] Allowed", would you still patronize that business?

Anonymous poll.

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I would patronize the business.

AmericanSpartan said:

I would patronize the business.

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Upon gathering the reception of that statement from the entire forum, AmericanSpartan adds,

I'd walk on by, safe in the knowledge that race is a dinosaur that doesn't know it's extinct. It's amusing to watch misplaced 'commitment' dissipate in the face of economic privation. Between their 'ideals' and their bank balance, the outcome is assured.

joG said:

Would you stick to that decision, if the word 'Aryans' were inserted?

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Yes, and what is an 'Aryan'?

Fiddytree said:

Upon gathering the reception of that statement from the entire forum, AmericanSpartan adds,

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Hey maybe he has good food, you never know....

Superfly said:

Same here. I think that, unfortunately, a lot of people think it's OK to hate Native Americans. I don't understand it, but it's there, and it's brushed under the rug, just like other kinds of discrimination that shall not be spoken of in this thread. :lol:

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Ever met one? Some of them are the meanest people you will mean, one throw a bottle of Jack at me just for walking by (bottle was still half full, which should be a crime to waste it like that)...