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Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%
  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%

  • Total voters
    45
14th day sober, for me, that is. :)

I won another copy of the 12 & 12 last night at a meeting - this time, I kept it, because I didn't have it and the group wanted me to have it.

Going to go read it right now, as I am having a little insomnia and need to read something to help me sleep (my sponsor suggests reading AA literature late at night, if one is tossing and turning) - g'night. :)
 
Am in the midst of sending friend requests to a "few" folks in this thread - just wanted you guys to know.
 
Am in the midst of sending friend requests to a "few" folks in this thread - just wanted you guys to know.

That's great and feel free to PM me if you ever want advice or to vent about something or whatever. That goes for anybody else reading this thread. There are certain things I don't really talk about, but what I have said in several threads is that I have an auto immune disease which causes chronic pain (I have stories that would freak people out soooo hard). How that relates to a thread about recovery? You can probably draw that conclusion yourself.

People on both sides of the AA debate love to quarrel about whether or not addiction is a disease. I would tend to believe the 99% of experts who say it is, but I also think it doesn't matter and it's semantics. There's this idea that if you call it a disease it means that you're claiming that you are absolving yourself from responsibility. Well, I have this stupid disease (the auto immune one) and just because it isn't my fault doesn't seem to matter at all. I have a responsibility to myself to treat it the best way I can, because I cannot fully contribute to society if I leave my disease untreated. I'm just saying this because so many people attack AA for accepting that addiction is a disease. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter. You don't need to know where you are to find your way out of the woods. The moar u know
 
The only problem I have with AA is that you need to be a theist to join and use their protocol. That's problematic, especially if the courts are forcing you to partake.

You don't have to be a theist to join. Not at all. Plenty of atheists are members of AA... including some members who have admitted as such in this very thread.
 
You don't have to be a theist to join. Not at all. Plenty of atheists are members of AA...
including some members who have admitted as such in this very thread.

Just as with all Military organizations such as the VFW, American Legion, Sons of American Legion which I am in--and all of their female counterparts.
God is an integral part of all of these organizations and atheists have enough common sense to redirect God to their own beliefs--in silence of course.

I've been meaning to mention my wife's weight watcher's group.
So many have been helped with WW and she wouldn't miss her weekly meeting, just like church.

Yet I'm sure there are naysayers on WW also.
I see WW as a self-help group where MANY OTHER ISSUES besides weight are discussed as the triggers for bad eating habits .
 
I was never challenged saying the word "Creator" in the public classroom.
I would always preface it with saying that students could find the word "Creator in the U.S. Constitution.

Sometimes I might mention "meeting my maker" and whether I had my "scales balanced".
What did I have to show for my life in helping others--that's why being a teacher was my salvation .

The only problem I have with AA is that you need to be a theist to join and use their protocol. That's problematic, especially if the courts are forcing you to partake.
 
No it isnt. AA helps people. Helping people is good. Courts don't force anyone to go to AA. You are given a choice. Just because you don't like the options doesn't mean you don't have a choice. To be in court and being given the choice of AA or jail means you need help.

AA has a lower success rate than the "evil" conversion therapy.

AA is victim mentality personified, no one is powerless, God has given people freewill and they drink because they choose to and nothing else.

AA only trades the addiction of drinks for the addiction of the program
 
AA has a lower success rate than the "evil" conversion therapy.

LOL. Got any cites for successful gay "conversions?"

AA is victim mentality personified, no one is powerless, God has given people freewill and they drink because they choose to and nothing else.

Yeah, you don't have a clue how AA works or about addiction, that much is clear. And if a person in AA stands up and says, "Woe is me, I'm a victim, I have to drink" you'll get exactly zero heads nodding in agreement.

AA only trades the addiction of drinks for the addiction of the program

That's not generally true, and to the extent it may be the case for some individuals, it's no different than any religion where people go sometimes two or three times a week, pray over every single meal, for an entire lifetime! Oh, the horror of that??:doh

Second, even if we accept your (mostly false) premise, that's a fantastic trade for the individual and for that person's family, friends, employer and society as a whole.
 
Yes it is. Several states have already ruled that its against the first amendment for the courts to force someone into AA if they're an atheist.

Help isn't help. If it violates your beliefs then it's not helpful to your psyche or recovery.

I am not sure that you understand the word force. Noone is forced into AA. AA is given as an option in place of incarceration for people who have violated the law because they have shown they cannot drink responsibly. If you dont like AA, either don't break the law or accept the punishment. And yes, help is help. If alcohol is ruining your life, ruining your family, ect and AA can help, then it is help. This idea that so many of you have that since it has religious undertones to it is clearly bad is asinine. AA isn't telling you to convert to a specific religion or anything else. If you are in AA you have either admitted or proven that you alone cannot control your addiction. Faith is a powerful tool, regardless of what you are putting that faith into. Most people believe in something. Whether that is a God of any variety or some other spiritual support either external or internal.
 
If it helps keep others sober and happy, who are the **** are you to condemn them?

I think he's suggesting that it doesn't work, doesn't keep people sober, it just keeps them coming back to AA. Not saying I agree with him, but you seem to have missed his point.

Here's a funny take on it:

 
You don't have to be a theist to join. Not at all. Plenty of atheists are members of AA... including some members who have admitted as such in this very thread.

What happens if you don't recognise that there is such a thing as a 'higher power'? Just askin'.
 
That's great and feel free to PM me if you ever want advice or to vent about something or whatever. That goes for anybody else reading this thread. There are certain things I don't really talk about, but what I have said in several threads is that I have an auto immune disease which causes chronic pain (I have stories that would freak people out soooo hard). How that relates to a thread about recovery? You can probably draw that conclusion yourself.

People on both sides of the AA debate love to quarrel about whether or not addiction is a disease. I would tend to believe the 99% of experts who say it is, but I also think it doesn't matter and it's semantics. There's this idea that if you call it a disease it means that you're claiming that you are absolving yourself from responsibility. Well, I have this stupid disease (the auto immune one) and just because it isn't my fault doesn't seem to matter at all. I have a responsibility to myself to treat it the best way I can, because I cannot fully contribute to society if I leave my disease untreated. I'm just saying this because so many people attack AA for accepting that addiction is a disease. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter. You don't need to know where you are to find your way out of the woods. The moar u know

Thanks, Mustachio. :)

Will do on the pm's - and there is loads of wisdom in that small post of yours. I like what you say about finding my way out of the woods - am going to clip that little saying and put it on my bedroom wall, so I don't forget.

Thanks again, my friend. :)
 
LOL. Got any cites for successful gay "conversions?"

People Can Change: Our Stories of Change

Yeah, you don't have a clue how AA works or about addiction, that much is clear. And if a person in AA stands up and says, "Woe is me, I'm a victim, I have to drink" you'll get exactly zero heads nodding in agreement.

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent" - AA Big Book

About Step 1 of the 12 Step Program


That's not generally true, and to the extent it may be the case for some individuals, it's no different than any religion where people go sometimes two or three times a week, pray over every single meal, for an entire lifetime! Oh, the horror of that??:doh

Second, even if we accept your (mostly false) premise, that's a fantastic trade for the individual and for that person's family, friends, employer and society as a whole.

It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.
 

OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent" - AA Big Book

About Step 1 of the 12 Step Program

That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people - sent me to the ER twice. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.

It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.

Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.

Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.
 
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It is a better thing, except that with the "powerless" aspect it steps up a self-fulling prophecy. That if you miss a meeting you will have a drink and if you have one drink you cant stop. Its pretty much a cult that steals time instead of money.

Let me just say that I don't care that people don't like AA. Frankly I wish the health care profession would take the problem more seriously and develop alternatives to AA, or medical approaches to be used in conjunction with AA. I read an interesting book called "Seven Weeks to Sobriety" by Larson that influenced how I approached the problem, and I followed a lot of her advice related to the physiological factors underlying alcoholism and the related depression associated with it and getting off intoxicants, and I believe it helped me. I'd love for that approach to be properly evaluated and then adopted more broadly if it was shown to work. Someone else has mentioned the drug approach used on parts of Europe. If they work, fantastic.

Point is I don't believe AA is the only way, or even the best way for many people, but I don't understand the need to mischaracterize what AA is to condemn it. At it's core it's really just a group of people with a common problem seeking solutions getting together trying to help each other live better lives, clean and sober. It's not that complicated. And the meetings vary tremendously, as do the groups and the people in them, as you'd expect when you have thousands of gatherings per day all across the country and the world. The meetings and therefore "AA" is, more or less, what the people in those mostly very small groups want "AA" to be. The AA program provides some structure, but stereotyping AA groups is as futile as trying to lump all religions that use some or all of the old and new Testament of the Bible into one homogenous group.
 
OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.

I can, you acted like you wanted specific stores rather than overall success rate.

Peer-reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between 5 and 10 percent.

The pseudo-science of Alcoholics Anonymous: There’s a better way to treat addiction - Salon.com

success rates for these therapies range from 11% (complete change in females) to 37%(complete change in males (Spitzer, 2003)

http://www.jpsych.com/pdfs/Spitzer, 2003.pdf

That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.

No, they come to AA for help and AA turns them into a victim


Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.

Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.

Its only true if you let it be true, lack of self responsibility is why people end up in AA to begin with and then AA reinforces that.
 
I can, you acted like you wanted specific stores rather than overall success rate.

http://www.jpsych.com/pdfs/Spitzer, 2003.pdf

The author of that study has repudiated his own study, and it's been ridiculed and debunked over and over because of many major holes in the study itself and how propagandists deliberately misinterpret the findings, like you did here. Got anything else?

BTW, I tried to find your quote in the paper itself. I suspect it is a mischaracterization of the paper's results, as is typical with this study. But I might be wrong, so on what page can I find that quote?

No, they come to AA for help and AA turns them into a victim

Really, I'm a victim? Of what? I'm pretty content, actually. Sober for quite a few years, healthy, happy, etc. So if this is what it feels like to be a 'victim,' I highly recommend being a victim of AA!!

Its only true if you let it be true, lack of self responsibility is why people end up in AA to begin with and then AA reinforces that.

I guess you're not an alcoholic? Or maybe you don't believe there is such a thing? Not sure.

Sure, obviously we can all decide whether or not to drink one beer or 50 in a week. Each sip is a conscious act. But that misses the entire point of addiction. For whatever reason, and physiology and genes play a role, a small segment of the population cannot successfully drink in moderation. Responsible people admit that and quit trying, and avoid all alcohol intake.

I don't know what your point is, really, but unless you're an alcoholic I don't think you can understand, and you're clearly unwilling to take the word of others.
 
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14th day sober, for me, that is. :)

I won another copy of the 12 & 12 last night at a meeting - this time, I kept it, because I didn't have it and the group wanted me to have it.

Going to go read it right now, as I am having a little insomnia and need to read something to help me sleep (my sponsor suggests reading AA literature late at night, if one is tossing and turning) - g'night. :)

I wish you good luck and strength.
 
This is a great attempt to appeal to feel goodery gibberish. Feel goodery that I understand. Of course we want people who have addictions to overcome them, and we certainly don't want to put them down for doing so. But the truth is, people who have harmful addictions, have them for a reason. That is because they have an inability to deal with reality. Whatever their situation may be, they find that their addiction gives them respite from dealing with it.

What? People are addicted to smoking (nicotine), caffeine, They have a chemical affect on the body that that is real, however people dont smoke or drink coffee to 'escape reality.' People become addicted to some prescription drugs they take for pain. They 'need' to keep taking them not for a high or to escape reality, but because their body reacts to the chemical dependency and causes pain and cravings and other issues.
 
OK, so you have some anecdotal evidence. I can visit a group at noon with at least 50 anecdotal examples of AA success, and another meeting at 1, another at 5:30, and 6:30, and a men's meeting at 8:00, and more tomorrow and Sat and Sun, and Monday...... You made a claim and cannot cite any evidence for it.



That's a true statement for most alcoholics. If an alcoholic says he can cut down, manage his alcohol intake, drink "normally," chances are he's lying. People that CAN manage their drinking aren't, you know, alcoholics and don't have a drinking problem. Those folks don't come to AA just for fun or in case at some point in the future they become unable to manage their drinking.

Furthermore, it's more than will power - it's a physiological addiction. Quitting abruptly can and does kill people - sent me to the ER twice. It's been shown to run in families and therefore has a genetic component to it. Etc.



Not my experience, and I've been doing it for several years. I can go months without a meeting, and really don't have any withdrawal symptoms or believe that if I miss, say, 90 days or more of meetings (which I've done) that I'll have a drink. Others go once or twice a week like I typically do. Few in for any length of time go daily, but some do. It varies, like people vary.

And the thing about "one drink and can't stop" is sort of true, but that's because most people who are alcoholic have learned through bitter experience that moderation isn't an achievable goal. The most tragic example is the founder of a group called Moderation Management. She apparently did fine with moderate intake, until she got drunk and killed someone with her car.



Finally, it's a self help group, not a cult.


This view of moderation is outdated.

The founder of Moderation Management, Audrey Kushline, got out of MM, and was pursuing SOBRIETY based on AA when that accident occurred.

Tell the truth.
 
About to hit day 15 and things are in fact getting better, though insomnia continues to be enough of a pest to make me uncomfortable (doctor says it will pass and so does AA - "this too shall pass.").

Am going to see my home group tomorrow - my sponsor says that the only good reason to miss a meeting at my home group is if I'm dead, so I must go.

I get up and say "please" to God these days; I say "Thanks, God" when I go to bed.

Things are going better at work, too - am looking forward to going and doing my job tomorrow.

I'm an early riser, so morning meetings work best for me.

Tired tonight (I guess that's a good thing) - about to hit the sheets.

Not worried about too much these days and I can tell you it feels like an 800 pound gorilla has been lifted off my shoulders.

Anyways,

G'Night, DP'ers and thanks for keeping this thread going for so long - guess it turned out to be one of my better (if not my best) "creations," lol. :)
 
About to hit day 15 and things are in fact getting better, though insomnia continues to be enough of a pest to make me uncomfortable (doctor says it will pass and so does AA - "this too shall pass.").

Am going to see my home group tomorrow - my sponsor says that the only good reason to miss a meeting at my home group is if I'm dead, so I must go.

I get up and say "please" to God these days; I say "Thanks, God" when I go to bed.

Things are going better at work, too - am looking forward to going and doing my job tomorrow.

I'm an early riser, so morning meetings work best for me.

Tired tonight (I guess that's a good thing) - about to hit the sheets.

Not worried about too much these days and I can tell you it feels like an 800 pound gorilla has been lifted off my shoulders.

Anyways,

G'Night, DP'ers and thanks for keeping this thread going for so long - guess it turned out to be one of my better (if not my best) "creations," lol. :)

Insomnia affects alot of people. There are many methods out there to help that do not require drugs.
Things like:

--turning off electronic devices and TV way before bedtime
--White noise (there are lots of free apps for your phone...I like a "Rain" one.)
--relaxing exercises
--meditation
--certain teas
--melatonin (this never helped me get to sleep but I did wake up more refreshed in the am)
--I use a heated mattress pad which is awesome but we're coming into the warmer part of the year

there are other things too if you look online. Good luck.
 
This view of moderation is outdated.

Hard to debate that. Not sure what view you're talking about or what part is outdated. There is a lot of disagreement about who, if anyone, needs to completely abstain and who might be a good candidate for trying to better manage their alcohol intake.

But really I don't want to argue it. I'll just say that I tried moderation for years and it doesn't work, at all, for me. If others can make it work, God bless. I know there is research that indicates many people with alcohol dependence CAN successfully moderate their intake. And that only about 15% of those with diagnosed AUD (alcohol use disorder) are severely dependent. So the view of moderation depends quite a bit on who we're talking about and how bad of a drinking problem they have, etc.

On the severe end of the scale, there are a lot of dead individuals and people sick in hospitals with failing livers and much more and who will die early deaths because they never could moderate their intake. I've known way too many of them inside and out of AA. So I'm agnostic on the topic, except for myself.

The founder of Moderation Management, Audrey Kushline, got out of MM, and was pursuing SOBRIETY based on AA when that accident occurred.

Tell the truth.

Right, but I have no idea why that matters. She quit MM because 'moderation' didn't work for her, and it failed in a tragic way, with the death of two people, two months after she left MM. If you're saying that MM works fine, but it's AA that failed, sorry but I don't see how you get there. If not I'm not sure what your point is or why the timeline matters.
 
AA has a lower success rate than the "evil" conversion therapy.

This is perhaps the most ignorant comment I've ever seen at DP... and that's saying something. Conversion therapy has been proven to be completely unsuccessful unless the individual is someone who WANTS to learn how to suppress their homosexual feelings/behaviors. That, isn't really success. Oh, and the vast majority of folks who go through conversion therapy, go back to homosexuality. Check out some of the records of Exodus International for more information.

AA is victim mentality personified, no one is powerless, God has given people freewill and they drink because they choose to and nothing else.

This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of AA and a complete lack of understanding of addiction. You don't understand what powerlessness means in this context. One is powerless over their addiction if they continue to act on their addiction. The power they have is admit that they cannot "use" and to abstain.

AA only trades the addiction of drinks for the addiction of the program

Not at all. It trades a serious medical condition for a treatment.
 
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Day 15 of sobriety, for me, it is. AA works.

Won't be posting today - gotta run and it's going to be a very busy day.

Am starting to "let go and let God (Group Of Drunks)."

Thanks for reading.
 
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