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Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%

  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%
  • Total voters
    45
DA60 said:
Hazelden Treatment Center and AA Statistics - Belief versus Fact: What is the truth about AA's success rate?

There is clearly a bias here. But nevertheless, this article provides some interesting information.

And, once again, if AA/CA works for you...power to you.

But, having attended several CA meetings and having had many dealing a with those who have gone to MANY AA/CA mertings, it is a religious-based organization whose success rate is far less impressive then generally advertised.
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And having attended meetings for nearly 9 years, I can offer a very informed opinion that it's NOT a religious based organization. For some people the 'higher power' element (i.e. God) of the program is central to their recovery. For many others, it's not, and I'm in the latter category. I haven't attended church for years. And in most decent sized meetings, people attending will run the gamut from confirmed atheists to the very religious.

In fact, surprising to me when I first became aware of it, the Christian evangelical types in my area don't often attend AA because they don't agree with the concept that there can be many possible and acceptable 'higher powers.' For them, there is only ONE God - the God of the Bible. There are several explicitly Christian recovery programs in the area that cater to that group, and I hope those attending are successful and live happy, sober, productive lives. I've been to their meetings and they are popular and I assume the hundreds that attend one big program nearby derive a great benefit from the services, but they are definitely NOT for me. No problem!
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
You are comparing AA to gangs? There is no comparison here. Gangs are not aimed at the good of the group AND the individual. Gangs are aimed towards the good of the leaders.
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Groups to groups... there are other comparisons that I am sure you will also discount so I wont bother...

No, you don't trump me. I have quite a bit of experience in that area, too. In a teacher-student relationship, both members are key in the learning process. I would think you would know that.
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Of course there is a relationship but if you don't understand that a teacher can try to motivate and teach a student that will not learn because they do not want to learn then you really, and literally, have no idea what you are talking about. I trump you so badly that you don't even realize it apparently...

No, you don't.
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:lol:
 
12th day sober for me now - am coming down off the "pink cloud" I was on the first 10 days or so.

Mom and Dad don't want me going to AA - in fact, they are trying to "sabotage" my sobriety. I basically have to lie to them as to where I'm going with the car these days, just to placate them. Am going to try to steal away later this morning and go to a 7:00am meeting - sponsor wants me out of the house asap, telling me to go to Craigslist and put out an ad and/or look for an apartment. May have to separate from my parents, at least for awhile.

Will keep you guys posted.
 
Red_Dave said:
I would be interested to hear about this
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I've seen people use their AA group as their "higher power". Their parents. Someone they admire. A movie. One friend used his left shoe (for a very specific reason). There are lots of options. All it has to be is representative of something greater than yourself.
 
DA60 said:
Lol...two things;

One - since you apparently will not answer even a simple question and since I believe you stated earlier that you have counselled people then I am going to assume your answer is 'yes - you have counselled people on various addictions for profit'.
If that is true, then you are incredibly biased on this subject as you are deriving income from it.
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No, that's your own opinion and truthfully, it has no value. You don't know me and I have no bias on AA. I've seen it work. I've also seen some pretty poor AA meetings. I will recommend things that I see work. Your opinion is baseless. Also, my salary has does not prevent me from being able to speak on the subject. In fact, my job gives me more credibility to speak on it than you.

Two - I gotta tell you; and I mean no offense; I have known MANY counsellors and shrinks (personally, socially and professionally), and you have about the worst attitude i have ever seen. You are exceedingly defensive, rude and I'll-tempered in your responses in this thread to ANYONE who dares disagree with you.
I hope for the sake of those that you counselled that this attitude is confined to the Internet and that you handle yourself with far more patience and professionalism in the real world.
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I respond to people in the way that they present. You present as a holier-than-thou know it all about things that you actually don't know much about. You made presumptions that are not only incorrect, but are fairly ignorant and based on your biases. I don't suffer people like that, well. You got what you gave: aggressive posting. Next time try dropping the attitude and try not making stupid overgeneralizations about groups of people based on nothing but your experience. Perhaps then our interactions might be a bit more to your liking. But I always give what I get.

As far as outside the internet, I call out clients on their crap all the time. Helps them a lot. They all know that I am direct and honest with them, even if it means being hard on them. From feedback I've gotten, it's earned me a lot of respect.

We are done here - for now

Good day.
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If that's true, OK with me.
 
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Nightrider said:
12th day sober for me now - am coming down off the "pink cloud" I was on the first 10 days or so.

Mom and Dad don't want me going to AA - in fact, they are trying to "sabotage" my sobriety. I basically have to lie to them as to where I'm going with the car these days, just to placate them. Am going to try to steal away later this morning and go to a 7:00am meeting - sponsor wants me out of the house asap, telling me to go to Craigslist and put out an ad and/or look for an apartment. May have to separate from my parents, at least for awhile.

Will keep you guys posted.
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I have a call into a Maine "crisis" hotline right now and am waiting for a call back.

My parents are just out of control. Screw Luke Skywalker - I am "Harry Potter" (and it sucks). :(
 
Bodhisattva said:
Groups to groups... there are other comparisons that I am sure you will also discount so I wont bother...
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Some groups apply, some don't. Context is key.

Of course there is a relationship but if you don't understand that a teacher can try to motivate and teach a student that will not learn because they do not want to learn then you really, and literally, have no idea what you are talking about. I trump you so badly that you don't even realize it apparently...
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Perhaps you could restate what you just said. The comment makes no sense to me.

:lol:
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Dismissing doesn't change that I'm right.
 
Nightrider said:
I have a call into a Maine "crisis" hotline right now and am waiting for a call back.

My parents are just out of control. Screw Luke Skywalker - I am "Harry Potter" (and it sucks). :(
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Hotline call went well, guys. Person I talked to was an AA member and had some awesome insight on my situation.

She told me that I'm doing great and to keep doing what I'm doing (going to AA meetings, working the steps with my sponsor, helping others, etc.). :)

Think it's going to be a wonderful day. :mrgreen::D
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
No, that's your own opinion and truthfully, it has no value. You don't know me and I have no bias on AA. I've seen it work. I've also seen some pretty poor AA meetings. I will recommend things that I see work. Your opinion is baseless. Also, my salary has does not prevent me from being able to speak on the subject. In fact, my job gives me more credibility to speak on it than you.
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That's an important point. There ARE bad meetings and bad groups. At their core they reflect the people regularly attending and human nature being what it is, personalities will clash, and some people will never be comfortable in some groups, and sometimes judgmental, dogmatic jerks attract other jerks and you can create a bad atmosphere. Same as any gathering of humans on the planet.

I remember one men's group that was pretty good for quite a while, but a handful of 'old timers' sort of assumed the role of AA elders and started regularly offering unwanted and unsolicited and often harsh critiques of how others were managing their sobriety. In most meetings that's severely frowned on and doesn't happen much, because the people offering their "wisdom" TO others, unasked, are politely told to keep their opinions of other attendees to themselves. These guys started doing it every meeting with no pushback from the group.

Anyway, after personally getting berated for 5 minutes on how badly I was screwing up and was headed for relapse (after about 7 years happily sober), I told the guy in somewhat polite terms to f off, I didn't actually ask for his advice, and never went back. I guess it worked for those guys, but was counterproductive for me, and I wasn't going to change it. But the point is these groups have all kinds of personalities, and making generalizations is just futile.
 
Nightrider said:
Hotline call went well, guys. Person I talked to was an AA member and had some awesome insight on my situation.

She told me that I'm doing great and to keep doing what I'm doing (going to AA meetings, working the steps with my sponsor, helping others, etc.). :)

Think it's going to be a wonderful day. :mrgreen::D
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That's good news, and I'm sorry to hear about problems with your parents. Don't know much about your personal situation, but I'll just say it took a while for my wife to come around. Lots of bad faith on my part over many years contributed to that. Anyway, she's been amazingly supportive after a bit of Missouri-style "show me" behavior on my part. Good luck!
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Some groups apply, some don't. Context is key.



Perhaps you could restate what you just said. The comment makes no sense to me.



Dismissing doesn't change that I'm right.
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My point is only that a student will learn nothing if they do not care. It doesn't matter what the teacher tries. When that happens there is not a symbiotic relationship. The teacher might learn about an obstinate kid but the student learns nothing.
 
Nightrider said:
Hotline call went well, guys. Person I talked to was an AA member and had some awesome insight on my situation.

She told me that I'm doing great and to keep doing what I'm doing (going to AA meetings, working the steps with my sponsor, helping others, etc.). :)

Think it's going to be a wonderful day. :mrgreen::D
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Good to hear. Good luck with it all and stay strong...
 
digsbe said:
I was required to attend an AA meeting as part of a school assignment in one of my psych courses. I don't agree with all their steps but it does help people. Alcoholism is an addiction, I wouldn't classify it as a disease in the sense that you have no control over it. However, once addicted it's easy for sober people to relapse and it is a significant mental and physical process to quit drinking.

It might not be the best program, but when I went the people seemed extremely welcoming, helpful, and those attending were getting support with many being sober for many years due to the support they get from AA. If it helps alcoholics quit drinking and turn their lives around I'm all for it.
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"Disease" aspects aside, I think your assessment of AA is accurate and balanced, and you draw pretty much the same conclusions I drew when I briefly attended several meetings two decades ago.

However, the AA "Big Book" is a treasure to behold if one is considering as to whether they have or are developing an alcohol problem.

After reading the myriad of stories they will either recognize themselves, or not. And if they do, they can arrest themselves from going further down the path to more severe alcoholism, or if thy're not there yet, they can see the dangers & not go down the path at all.

I very highly recommend the "Big Book" to anyone that has even the most passing concern with their drinking. It can't hurt. It might help.

Available at any AA meeting for a suggested (but not required) donation.

[disclosure - I have no (nor ever had) AA/12 step affiliation]
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Dismissing doesn't change that I'm right.
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I know. You are right. You know more about your field than me. You also know more about my field than me. You know CC, this type of horseshit annoys some but it only makes me laugh, hence my response.
 
Tomorrow will be my 13th day sober - Group Of Drunks willing. :)

Great day at work today - went to a meeting after. Won a copy of the 12 & 12 in a raffle - gave it to a young lady who picked up a white chip at that meeting.

Parents are barking at me right now to get off the computer, so I gotta go (am tired tonight, anyway - bed and Teddy Bear call me. Yes, I still sleep with Teddy Bear.).

Good night, DP. :)
 
JasperL said:
That's an important point. There ARE bad meetings and bad groups. At their core they reflect the people regularly attending and human nature being what it is, personalities will clash, and some people will never be comfortable in some groups, and sometimes judgmental, dogmatic jerks attract other jerks and you can create a bad atmosphere. Same as any gathering of humans on the planet.

I remember one men's group that was pretty good for quite a while, but a handful of 'old timers' sort of assumed the role of AA elders and started regularly offering unwanted and unsolicited and often harsh critiques of how others were managing their sobriety. In most meetings that's severely frowned on and doesn't happen much, because the people offering their "wisdom" TO others, unasked, are politely told to keep their opinions of other attendees to themselves. These guys started doing it every meeting with no pushback from the group.

Anyway, after personally getting berated for 5 minutes on how badly I was screwing up and was headed for relapse (after about 7 years happily sober), I told the guy in somewhat polite terms to f off, I didn't actually ask for his advice, and never went back. I guess it worked for those guys, but was counterproductive for me, and I wasn't going to change it. But the point is these groups have all kinds of personalities, and making generalizations is just futile.
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In bold. I've seen meetings like this and had clients who had sponsors like this. These are the worst kind of people to be in AA: supposed know-it-alls who believe that they know better of how to run someone's program. When I encounter people like this, I usually, sternly, tell them that they need to clean their own house before the start commenting on the the cleanliness of anothers. Usually shuts them down or gets them to bug off.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I know. You are right. You know more about your field than me. You also know more about my field than me. You know CC, this type of horseshit annoys some but it only makes me laugh, hence my response.
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I may not know more about your field than you, but I know enough to know that you're wrong.
 
Bodhisattva said:
My point is only that a student will learn nothing if they do not care. It doesn't matter what the teacher tries. When that happens there is not a symbiotic relationship. The teacher might learn about an obstinate kid but the student learns nothing.
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I can agree with that, but you are discussing a very specific set of circumstances here.
 
Nightrider said:
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.
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Sadly, sir, for you, I see a lifetime of ills and troubles .. Of course, AA is not perfect .. what is ? And maybe it can stand to be improved .. In truth many people have been helped , my sister for one ..
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
In bold. I've seen meetings like this and had clients who had sponsors like this. These are the worst kind of people to be in AA: supposed know-it-alls who believe that they know better of how to run someone's program. When I encounter people like this, I usually, sternly, tell them that they need to clean their own house before the start commenting on the the cleanliness of anothers. Usually shuts them down or gets them to bug off.
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That's typically what happens in most meetings. Whoever speaks next normally cautions against what's called "cross talk" in our area. But this became a group 'trait' if you will and addressing it wasn't a battle I cared to wage - life's short, serenity prayer and all that.
 
earthworm said:
Sadly, sir, for you, I see a lifetime of ills and troubles .. Of course, AA is not perfect .. what is ? And maybe it can stand to be improved .. In truth many people have been helped , my sister for one ..
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I do hope and pray that you are wrong, I'll say that. Congrats to your sister! :)

I have 13 days sober myself in AA right now - taking it one day at a time (sometimes 5 minutes at a time). Have given up drinking and all nicotine products as well.

Look, I was basically a "dry drunk" when I posted that OP - now, I have a sponsor, am going to meetings every day and have an awesome home group. IF I drink again, you are right. If I remain in AA, you will be proven wrong. I'm betting you are hoping that I remain in AA. :)

I intend to, one day at a time.
 
The only problem I have with AA is that you need to be a theist to join and use their protocol. That's problematic, especially if the courts are forcing you to partake.
 
Northern Light said:
The only problem I have with AA is that you need to be a theist to join and use their protocol. That's problematic, especially if the courts are forcing you to partake.
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No it isnt. AA helps people. Helping people is good. Courts don't force anyone to go to AA. You are given a choice. Just because you don't like the options doesn't mean you don't have a choice. To be in court and being given the choice of AA or jail means you need help.
 
Kreton said:
No it isnt. AA helps people. Helping people is good. Courts don't force anyone to go to AA. You are given a choice. Just because you don't like the options doesn't mean you don't have a choice. To be in court and being given the choice of AA or jail means you need help.
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Yes it is. Several states have already ruled that its against the first amendment for the courts to force someone into AA if they're an atheist.

Help isn't help. If it violates your beliefs then it's not helpful to your psyche or recovery.
 
Kreton said:
No it isnt. AA helps people. Helping people is good. Courts don't force anyone to go to AA. You are given a choice. Just because you don't like the options doesn't mean you don't have a choice. To be in court and being given the choice of AA or jail means you need help.
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If you've read much of the thread, you can see I'm a supporter of AA. But I don't actually agree with courts requiring AA as a condition of parole, or licensing boards requiring AA as a condition of reinstatement, etc. I don't have any problem requiring some form of treatment, but don't believe AA should be the only option.

The steps done correctly do require people to recognize God, or a higher power. Atheists get around this by recognizing something other than a deity as their higher power and many have been going to meetings for years, but I don't really think it's fair to require a person to do that if they don't believe in God. I'm not sure how it works in other areas, but ours recites the Serenity prayer and many recite the Lord's Prayer as part of the official meeting. I can see someone having a legitimate ethical problem with that if they really didn't believe in any god, and don't believe a court should mandate that as part of any sentence or to avoid any sentence, even though I believe atheists with an open mind can benefit greatly from AA and shouldn't allow the higher power element to deter them from meetings.
 
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