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Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%
  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%

  • Total voters
    45
So much great stuff in this thread since I left it, and I hate to pick one, but this post is excellent, IMHO -

(I also think this turned into one of the better & more heart-felt threads here)

I can respect your opinion. You're certainly not the first to express malcontentment (or disapproval) for 12 step programs in the manner in which you have and I apologize for having to delete part of your post..I ran out of the allotted character space.

But I would say that the issues around chemical dependency is more than complex than most of us can even begin to realize.. The variables involved are as many as their are people with different levels of intelligence, creativity, religious beliefs, education backgrounds, life experiences, etc, etc, etc.

I don't want to try to defend the mantras often used in AA. Or the repetition of sayings that people use to make a statement of condition or simply an act of being or existing.

Most people who attend AA go their with a lost sense of self. They've become disconnected with their families, possibly co-workers, etc. Critical thinking has been one of their better skills for sometime. They have diminished problem solving skills, which usually impacts so many aspects of their social skills in general.

But people who find it difficult to get sober and/or clean have very skewed concepts about their dilemma. And many just want to know how to find solution that isn't as complex than their current perspectives on life, which a lot of people believe is basically hopeless. What they want is something like a "paint by the numbers" sort of solution. In other words, life is damn complicated for them and they need to see something that has a not so complex of a starting place, which at some level makes some sense to them. And where they can see some continuing path that "could possibly lead to some positive end result".

What AA (and like programs) has to offer is a paint by the number solution - which is comprised of common sense principles which has the ability to apply in some positive way for all of the various types of people who find themselves participating in the program.

Because every person's life is different, the manner in which they actively participate will not bear the same exactly outcomes for each person. That's not the intent. In fact, there is no way to mold people's minds to live their lives in a controlled like environment once they walk out of an AA meeting. No matter where people go - there they are. Their problems still exist. They aren't exempt form life's sometimes harshness and non-discriminating random acts of challenging hardships.

But, make no mistake. There is an intent involved. It's to help people, via a very rote method, to deal with life on life's terms. People need to be able to get sober or clean long enough to become teachable and to see their world and problems through different eyes (metaphorically speaking). It's like parents with children who have ADHD and they have their kids put on a medication - thinking that all their problems will go away. They don't. The meds might make it possible for kids to become teachable. But the hard work involved to get to some positive results must be viewed from two perspectives. One is providing the types of information that has the possible chance to promote positive change. The other is helping those who are in situations where learning is difficult - to actually learn.

No, AA isn't a one-size-fits-all type of solution. It is, however, the potential to be a huge stepping stone from a place of feeling terminally unique to knowing that they aren't alone, there is a other options than the one an alcoholic or addict has repeatedly used thinking they could solve their own skewed concepts of what the hell has gone wrong in their life.

We can't think ourselves into acting right. We have to act ourselves into thinking right. (Not an AA saying - but maybe it should be) ;)

Thanks, DG...
Thank you for composing this - it shows good excellent into both addiction & 12 step programs.
 
It is a religion. There are those that need that cult brotherhood in order to find strength because they are weak. Much the same as religion helps people "be kind to others" when that ability is already within them.

You really don't know what you are talking about, Bodi. Not at all.
 
All good and not every case is the same but in my experience the strength is already within the individual. The group, like a teacher, can't do anything without the student.

And the students are stronger as a group then as individuals. And the student, also can't do anything without the teacher. The relationship is symbiotic: each gains strength through the other.
 
I don't care if it is a crutch. If it helps it helps. I am just stating what I think that it is with no judgement.

No. Here are some of your "judgments":

It is a religion. There are those that need that cult brotherhood in order to find strength because they are weak.

You are saying it is a religion. That is your personal judgment, and one that is incorrect since it is not. You are also saying that those people need the group because they are weak. That is also a judgment. Wanting or needing help does not equal being weak.
 
No. Here are some of your "judgments":



You are saying it is a religion. That is your personal judgment, and one that is incorrect since it is not. You are also saying that those people need the group because they are weak. That is also a judgment. Wanting or needing help does not equal being weak.

Have you ever derived income from counselling people about their alcohol/drug addictions (outside of AA)?

Yes or no, please. No 12 page dissertation...just yes or no, please.
 
I want to stress that for people whom can quit alcohol/drugs on their own, - without AA - you are my heroes and all the more power to you.

As an addict/alcoholic and a "mentally ill" person as well, I am finding AA to be very helpful lately. AA is giving me the tools (a road map, that is) to be happy, joyous and free - I'm for all intents and purposes an "atheist," but call GOD Good Orderly Direction. That basic concept is helping me get through the steps.

I have exactly one week sober now. I haven't felt this good in years and just landed a good job yesterday (as a direct result of working the steps). All AA wants to do is give me a good life - and get me out of the sheer hell I was living in. I'm meeting girls as well, though am going to focus on my recovery first - girls are a "danger zone" for me, as I always seem to go for the ones whom are sick (mentally). I tend to attract needy girls whom are clingy and obsessive - borderline stalkers. I don't need that. I hope - one day - to find a nice girl via AA, especially one who has been sober for a number of years and has her head screwed on straight. I don't want any more relationships that purely revolve around sex - I just want someone who cares and share hugs and stuff with. Someone to hold and cuddle with, in other words.

Anyway, I intend to keep going to AA, one day at a time. I do have a question for anyone whom cares to answer at this point: "AA maintains anonymity at the level of press, radio and film." Does this forum count as "press?" I mean, am I jeopardizing my sobriety by continuing to post here? Because if I am, I don't want to do that.

AA also "has no opinion on outside issues." In other words, they are non-political, from what I gather that means. So, am I endangering my sobriety by continuing to post in a debate forum? - when the literature says to "resign from the debating society and quit bothering myself with what came first - the chicken or the egg."

Anyone whom cares to respond to that is welcome to do so. Thanks in advance.

In the meantime, I will either ask my sponsor this stuff and/or bring it up in a meeting.

Thanks for reading.
 
First of all, I was responding to a person who implied that if someone goes to meetings for 30 years, AA is a crutch because they're not "strong." I don't agree. Lots of reasons to go to meetings, and there are lots of incredibly strong and inspiring people in AA, successful outside AA, etc.

Second, if it's a "crutch" so what? Obviously those who attend even 1 meeting voluntarily have tried to quit 'on their own' and failed. If they're not manly enough to white knuckle it and need some help. what's the problem? It's sort of the general attitude in this country on mental health in general - if you need some help, you're not "strong" or something. It's a wrong headed way to look at it IMO. Yes, some people cannot just white knuckle an addiction that actually is potentially fatal if self treated. Withdrawal is a medical event that requires medical supervision, and getting over the physical addiction that makes quitting a medical event is damn hard and some people do need help. They're not some kind of failed human being because of it. Some people need the support of others, and often those who attend AA do not have support anywhere else.
This is my thought on it. It may be a "crutch" for some. So what? Seriously... so what?

I will never understand the mentality... the hubris... of believing what worked for them *will* work for everyone else, no exceptions.
 
Anyway, I intend to keep going to AA, one day at a time. I do have a question for anyone whom cares to answer at this point: "AA maintains anonymity at the level of press, radio and film." Does this forum count as "press?" I mean, am I jeopardizing my sobriety by continuing to post here? Because if I am, I don't want to do that.

Not everyone will agree, I think I've even seen an issue of Grapevine on it, but as far as I know Nightrider isn't who is listed on your social security card or birth certificate, so I don't see how you've compromised your anonymity.

AA also "has no opinion on outside issues." In other words, they are non-political, from what I gather that means. So, am I endangering my sobriety by continuing to post in a debate forum? - when the literature says to "resign from the debating society and quit bothering myself with what came first - the chicken or the egg."

As you've seen, there appear to be several people on here who are in AA and participate in political debates. Unless a person purports to speak for AA on, say, minimum wage laws, there shouldn't be a problem. And on issues directly related to alcohol, the general tradition in AA in my area is to speak about our own experiences and not make broad statements of THE truth, etc. E.g. - this is what helped me, might not be the same for you. That kind of thing.

In the meantime, I will either ask my sponsor this stuff and/or bring it up in a meeting.

Thanks for reading.

Both questions have been frequently addressed in meetings and by sponsors. It's never a bad idea to get alternative ideas. Especially early on. I made a conscious decision to quit worrying about sports and politics for quite a while. Seemed like my energy was more productively directed closer to home. But being sober and in AA doesn't require a person to check out of public debates or discussions. More than anything in my view is making sure to keep these things in perspective. I look at these debates as entertainment and a good way to force myself to critically examine my beliefs by defending them in a discussion with people who disagree. But I don't pretend that I'm changing the world here - just mostly having fun.
 
Hi Deuce,

I'm still going to meetings and have told those people in AA what I posted here. They understand - even laughed.

If I own an apology here, though, I apologize. I was wrong what I said in that OP (didn't know it then - but know it now).

For more info, please see my thread *My parents and I* in the self help/advice forum

Thanks.

That is a pretty special thing to say, but apologize for offense to others, but not for being honest about your thoughts and ideas. You might or might not be 'wrong', but saying all the right words when, for you, it is a lie, withers us a bit when we are well. For the alcoholic it can be deadly. That is what AA and Al-Anon is really all about--helping us not to lie to ourselves and others and to be brutally honest, however emotionally uncomfortable that might be.

Not directed at you personally but just as a general observation, being openly and brutally honest is not always feasible everywhere but in the AA or Al-anon meeting, it is not only allowed but encouraged. Sometimes we have to listen for a very long time and talk it through before the light come on and we know what the truth is. But AA is a safe place to do that. Nobody can say anything in an AA meeting that somebody else hasn't seen, heard, and done. Nothing you say will upset or shock anybody. They hear you, understand you, and provide a supportive and safe place to learn and implement a self help process of getting clean and sober and being comfortable and happy being clean and sober.

AA is no more a 'crutch' for the alcoholic than is going to school to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic is a crutch for learning or going to the gym and using a personal trainer is a crutch for getting fit.
 
That is a pretty special thing to say, but apologize for offense to others, but not for being honest about your thoughts and ideas. You might or might not be 'wrong', but saying all the right words when, for you, it is a lie, withers us a bit when we are well. For the alcoholic it can be deadly. That is what AA and Al-Anon is really all about--helping us not to lie to ourselves and others and to be brutally honest, however emotionally uncomfortable that might be.

Not directed at you personally but just as a general observation, being openly and brutally honest is not always feasible everywhere but in the AA or Al-anon meeting, it is not only allowed but encouraged. Sometimes we have to listen for a very long time and talk it through before the light come on and we know what the truth is. But AA is a safe place to do that. Nobody can say anything in an AA meeting that somebody else hasn't seen, heard, and done. Nothing you say will upset or shock anybody. They hear you, understand you, and provide a supportive and safe place to learn and implement a self help process of getting clean and sober and being comfortable and happy being clean and sober.

AA is no more a 'crutch' for the alcoholic than is going to school to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic is a crutch for learning or going to the gym and using a personal trainer is a crutch for getting fit.

Unconditional love, something I never really had:


I know what you are saying and get your point (I was *right* to say it in a meeting, but perhaps wrong to post it here - maybe, maybe not to that last one). What I know for sure is that being honest is what is saving me these days - both in AA and dealing with the real world.

Now. To be honest, I carry a lot of weight over all types of abuse that happened to me growing up. A lot of that abuse came in that AA group I attended in Miami. Hence, my prior rage towards AA. However, that was NOT real AA - didn't know it then, but know it now. :)

I have a strong support team these days - that includes my AA home group. They told me I'm one of those people whom just needs a lot of love - PLATONIC love, that is. I'm feeling that love these days and the folks in my home group are my new moms and dads. They told me that's all I need and I accept their love/understanding/encouragement/support and they are now my mentors.

One thing's for sure - they won't be letting go of me. They got me now and I'm happy and grateful. :)
 
I want to stress that for people whom can quit alcohol/drugs on their own, - without AA - you are my heroes and all the more power to you.

As an addict/alcoholic and a "mentally ill" person as well, I am finding AA to be very helpful lately. AA is giving me the tools (a road map, that is) to be happy, joyous and free - I'm for all intents and purposes an "atheist," but call GOD Good Orderly Direction. That basic concept is helping me get through the steps.

I have exactly one week sober now. I haven't felt this good in years and just landed a good job yesterday (as a direct result of working the steps). All AA wants to do is give me a good life - and get me out of the sheer hell I was living in. I'm meeting girls as well, though am going to focus on my recovery first - girls are a "danger zone" for me, as I always seem to go for the ones whom are sick (mentally). I tend to attract needy girls whom are clingy and obsessive - borderline stalkers. I don't need that. I hope - one day - to find a nice girl via AA, especially one who has been sober for a number of years and has her head screwed on straight. I don't want any more relationships that purely revolve around sex - I just want someone who cares and share hugs and stuff with. Someone to hold and cuddle with, in other words.

Anyway, I intend to keep going to AA, one day at a time. I do have a question for anyone whom cares to answer at this point: "AA maintains anonymity at the level of press, radio and film." Does this forum count as "press?" I mean, am I jeopardizing my sobriety by continuing to post here? Because if I am, I don't want to do that.

AA also "has no opinion on outside issues." In other words, they are non-political, from what I gather that means. So, am I endangering my sobriety by continuing to post in a debate forum? - when the literature says to "resign from the debating society and quit bothering myself with what came first - the chicken or the egg."

Anyone whom cares to respond to that is welcome to do so. Thanks in advance.

In the meantime, I will either ask my sponsor this stuff and/or bring it up in a meeting.

Thanks for reading.

When you post on 'debate threads' you are not posting as a member of AA coming from that perspective. You are posting as Nightrider, U.S. citizen (or whatever you are.) You aren't required to be neutral on anything as a member of AA. You are just expected not to "out" your fellow AA members and not presume to speak for AA on social or political issues. I'm pretty sure there is no requirement that you cannot tell others that you are going to AA. (If so that is a new thing.) But for sure you aren't expected to stop being yourself as a person with convictions, perceptions, beliefs, passions, and opinions. But. . .if that is causing you personal problems and detracting from your No.1 priority of getting sober, then of course you should not engage in it.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the 'debating society - chicken/egg' concept is regarding our attitudes about AA, the religious aspects of it etc. and is an encouragement to stop worrying about 'how it works' but just give it a chance to work.
 
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Not everyone will agree, I think I've even seen an issue of Grapevine on it, but as far as I know Nightrider isn't who is listed on your social security card or birth certificate, so I don't see how you've compromised your anonymity.



As you've seen, there appear to be several people on here who are in AA and participate in political debates. Unless a person purports to speak for AA on, say, minimum wage laws, there shouldn't be a problem. And on issues directly related to alcohol, the general tradition in AA in my area is to speak about our own experiences and not make broad statements of THE truth, etc. E.g. - this is what helped me, might not be the same for you. That kind of thing.



Both questions have been frequently addressed in meetings and by sponsors. It's never a bad idea to get alternative ideas. Especially early on. I made a conscious decision to quit worrying about sports and politics for quite a while. Seemed like my energy was more productively directed closer to home. But being sober and in AA doesn't require a person to check out of public debates or discussions. More than anything in my view is making sure to keep these things in perspective. I look at these debates as entertainment and a good way to force myself to critically examine my beliefs by defending them in a discussion with people who disagree. But I don't pretend that I'm changing the world here - just mostly having fun.

When you post on 'debate threads' you are not posting as a member of AA coming from that perspective. You are posting as Nightrider, U.S. citizen (or whatever you are.) You aren't required to be neutral on anything as a member of AA. You are just expected not to "out" your fellow AA members and not presume to speak for AA on social or political issues. I'm pretty sure there is no requirement that you cannot tell others that you are going to AA. (If so that is a new thing.) But for sure you aren't expected to stop being yourself as a person with convictions, perceptions, beliefs, passions, and opinions. But. . .if that is causing you personal problems and detracting from your No.1 priority of getting sober, then of course you should not engage in it.

Thanks so much to both of you for setting me straight on this. :)
 
Evidently, AA and , all of us can stand for improvement. A refusal to think and extremism are problems .
 
When you post on 'debate threads' you are not posting as a member of AA coming from that perspective. You are posting as Nightrider, U.S. citizen (or whatever you are.) You aren't required to be neutral on anything as a member of AA. You are just expected not to "out" your fellow AA members and not presume to speak for AA on social or political issues. I'm pretty sure there is no requirement that you cannot tell others that you are going to AA. (If so that is a new thing.) But for sure you aren't expected to stop being yourself as a person with convictions, perceptions, beliefs, passions, and opinions. But. . .if that is causing you personal problems and detracting from your No.1 priority of getting sober, then of course you should not engage in it.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the 'debating society - chicken/egg' concept is regarding our attitudes about AA, the religious aspects of it etc. and is an encouragement to stop worrying about 'how it works' but just give it a chance to work.

I agree with all that, but just a comment on the anonymity. Obviously someone is free to say they're in AA to family, friends, employers, etc. What's generally frowned on is speaking in a public setting and identifying oneself as a member or attendee of AA. The idea is when a person speaks on issues related to alcohol, if he said he's a 27 year 'member' of AA, it might imply that his views are somehow endorsed by AA when they are not.

So I don't worry about it much. If the person isn't implying they know THE truth and THE way to sobriety, and they say they're in AA or attend meetings, fine with me. And there is no AA police, or sanctions for violating any rule. Your own sobriety is what really matters, so my view is if discussing something online helps a person, and they're not speaking for "AA" then that's great.

As a general rule, if not in the company of good friends or family, I don't publicly mention AA or that I'm an alcoholic for lots of reasons, among them it's no one's business and few people actually understand what it means to be an alcoholic or in recovery and tend to change the way they interact with you in a bad way. They tend to think that the slightest sign of alcohol might send you off into a drunken rage. Even good friends early on were sometimes apparently embarrassed or reluctant to have a beer in my presence. I don't want that - alcohol is my problem, not theirs. If I'm not ready to be around drinkers, it's my job to avoid them, not for them to accommodate my problem.

The only cardinal rule is to NEVER publicly out another person who attends meetings. Not ever, not for any reason, under any circumstance. I'll even avoid acknowledging other people in public unless it's just the two of us OR I can answer "How do you two know each other" in a way that doesn't require "in the basement of the church..." I remember a guy who had a senior position for a big company and was walking downtown back from lunch with coworkers. A pretty low bottom AA person still mostly on the streets (but sober) said hello to him by name and it made the person furious because he was afraid (and perhaps legitimately so) that his coworkers knowing he was in treatment threatened his career. It was just an innocent, "Hey Bob" (literally, that's all that was said) on the streets, but a HUGE deal to one of the parties. VPs aren't usually on a first name basis with street people. Here, always, always err on the side of caution. As crazy as it may be, I've known several people who came in without any family knowing (in the beginning), so it's not even safe to assume the wife or husband knows.
 
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I agree with all that, but just a comment on the anonymity. Obviously someone is free to say they're in AA to family, friends, employers, etc. What's generally frowned on is speaking in a public setting and identifying oneself as a member or attendee of AA. The idea is when a person speaks on issues related to alcohol, if he said he's a 27 year 'member' of AA, it might imply that his views are somehow endorsed by AA when they are not.

So I don't worry about it much. If the person isn't implying they know THE truth and THE way to sobriety, and they say they're in AA or attend meetings, fine with me. And there is no AA police, or sanctions for violating any rule. Your own sobriety is what really matters, so my view is if discussing something online helps a person, and they're not speaking for "AA" then that's great.

As a general rule, if not in the company of good friends or family, I don't publicly mention AA or that I'm an alcoholic for lots of reasons, among them it's no one's business and few people actually understand what it means to be an alcoholic or in recovery and tend to change the way they interact with you in a bad way. They tend to think that the slightest sign of alcohol might send you off into a drunken rage. Even good friends early on were sometimes apparently embarrassed or reluctant to have a beer in my presence. I don't want that - alcohol is my problem, not theirs. If I'm not ready to be around drinkers, it's my job to avoid them, not for them to accommodate my problem.

The only cardinal rule is to NEVER publicly out another person who attends meetings. Not ever, not for any reason, under any circumstance. I'll even avoid acknowledging other people in public unless it's just the two of us OR I can answer "How do you two know each other" in a way that doesn't require "in the basement of the church..." I remember a guy who had a senior position for a big company and was walking downtown back from lunch with coworkers. A pretty low bottom AA person still mostly on the streets (but sober) said hello to him by name and it made the person furious because he was afraid (and perhaps legitimately so) that his coworkers knowing he was in treatment threatened his career. It was just an innocent, "Hey Bob" (literally, that's all that was said) on the streets, but a HUGE deal to one of the parties. VPs aren't usually on a first name basis with street people. Here, always, always err on the side of caution. As crazy as it may be, I've known several people who came in without any family knowing (in the beginning), so it's not even safe to assume the wife or husband knows.

Well said and all true. You said it much more cohesively and completely than I did. Well done.
 
I agree with all that, but just a comment on the anonymity. Sorry, had to snip your post #214 because of the allotted characters space

As AlbqOwl as stated, "Well said, Jasper".

I rarely reveal my association (my membership, if you will) with AA for all of the reasons you've made clear in your post #214.

If I'm introduced to someone in a public place that I recognize as someone "who I believe to be in the program", but not sure. In the course of general conversation I might ask, "Have we met before at Bill Wilson's house?" If I'm at a public function where alcohol flows freely and I'm asked if I want a drink. I simply reply, "No thanks" (and no reason is necessary for not accepting). If I'm pressured by someone, I'll say, "If I have just one drink, I get deathly ill, but thank you for offering anyway." Most let it go.

But let's be honest here. Alcoholics are a minority that are viewed by many folks as persons of weak character (and the descriptions of weak character will vary). Alcoholics are believed to be people who avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Alcoholics are believed to be people who deny their personal abilities to be the master of their own ship. Alcoholics are believed to be people who could easily rise above their weaknesses, pull themselves up by the bootstraps, man up or woman up and get their **** together by simply employing will power that everybody inherently has. Then alcoholics could join the normal majority in their blissful, everyday adventures of being "ordinary people who don't let silly things like alcohol rule their lives".

The reality is that most people don't understand the dynamics of alcoholism. I can't fault them for not knowing - or even wanting to know. I'd love to be able to educate everybody who isn't alcoholic about the complex biological/physical/mental mechanisms of alcoholism in a such way that they could truly grasp. And possibly persuade them to accept that this problem is an actual disease - based on why it actually is. Or the significance of alcoholics/addicts having a recovery program or process. But unfortunately that isn't a reality.

The only true means I have in educating anybody about alcoholism is simply being a living example of my sobriety, my beliefs, and my values. If someone sees any merit in the way I live my life, they're free to make inquiry. Inside the walls of AA all I can do is share my experiences and what has worked for me. Having a sponsor is so important. However, I always tell newcomers to take the time to make inquiry with numerous members who have a reasonable amount of sobriety, listen to their experiences and what's worked for them. That's the power of being in a GROUP environment. Even after 29 years of sobriety, I don't possess any magical words to share with someone struggling with their alcoholism. If it were only that simple.

As you well know, sobriety is a process and not an event. And there's gonna be successes and failures in practicing the principles. It takes a lot of hard work, personal devotion, and perseverance in order to really get the benefits of the principles found in AA. Once we walk out of the doors of AA, the very same life that everybody else must live is happening in full swing. The true test is - can we be constitutionally honest with ourselves when we walk out of the doors of AA? Can we remain honest with ourselves as we navigate through our daily tasks?

Thanks for your posts.
 
AA and psychiatric meds:

Anyone have an opinion on this? I just got off the phone with my sponsor, whom wants me off my meds entirely - he says:

1) Psychiatry can "shove it"

2) When I go to AA meetings all "pilled up," I'm not really living and not really sober

3) I need to talk to my doctor - if he does not agree with pulling me off my meds entirely, I should find another doctor

4) He said I sounded drunk on the phone, like I was on drugs (which technically speaking, that's what psychiatric meds are)

Sponsor has a point - will say that. When I spoke to him just now, my speech was slurred and my thinking process was very slow, having just woken up from a deep nap the instant he called (waking me up).

I'm still waking up right now and my mind clearer. But, a few minutes ago, I was out of it. My life has more or less been this way since they put me on meds initially. It takes me several hours to fully wake up in the morning these days, for instance (and that's only, lol, after I've had about five cups of coffee).

Thanks - will look forward to replies. :)
 
AA and psychiatric meds:

Anyone have an opinion on this? I just got off the phone with my sponsor, whom wants me off my meds entirely - he says:

1) Psychiatry can "shove it"

2) When I go to AA meetings all "pilled up," I'm not really living and not really sober

3) I need to talk to my doctor - if he does not agree with pulling me off my meds entirely, I should find another doctor

4) He said I sounded drunk on the phone, like I was on drugs (which technically speaking, that's what psychiatric meds are)

Sponsor has a point - will say that. When I spoke to him just now, my speech was slurred and my thinking process was very slow, having just woken up from a deep nap the instant he called (waking me up).

I'm still waking up right now and my mind clearer. But, a few minutes ago, I was out of it. My life has more or less been this way since they put me on meds initially. It takes me several hours to fully wake up in the morning these days, for instance (and that's only, lol, after I've had about five cups of coffee).

Thanks - will look forward to replies. :)

No worries, folks, 'bout responding to post #217. I mean, you can if you want, but I have a new sponsor now - a real mean old redneck s.o.b. with like 40 years of sobriety. Just the type of sponsor I need to call me on my s**t and keep my a** in line. :mrgreen:

I have to sign out for tonight - sponsor wants me to call him promptly at sun up tomorrow morning (he gets up when the rooster crows and the rooster crows in rural Maine at 5:30am). So I bid everyone good night and thanks again for all your insight in this thread. :)
 
I honestly have no idea about AA. Currently have a family member going through it, and he has seen improvements. But I also have heard many negative things about it. Honestly, the overwhelming majority of things I have heard have been negative. But that is not my biggest beef with the OP. My biggest disagreement is with alcoholism not being taken seriously as a disease. I know there are studies done on both side of this issue but does that mean we should not possibly let the consensus and study the issue further? Also does this mean we should not medically and psychologically treat the issue as a disease
 
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

Doesn't matter what you think of AA. Your girl thought you needed help. You should probably look at your life. Good luck.
 
If I'm at a public function where alcohol flows freely and I'm asked if I want a drink. I simply reply, "No thanks" (and no reason is necessary for not accepting). If I'm pressured by someone, I'll say, "If I have just one drink, I get deathly ill, but thank you for offering anyway." Most let it go.
My response if "No thanks" doesn't work, is a reasonably curt: "I don't drink".

I've never had it go further than that (in 20 yrs).
 
Doesn't matter what you think of AA. Your girl thought you needed help. You should probably look at your life. Good luck.

Looking at my life is indeed what I've been doing. ;)

Thanks for the well wishes! :)
 
I honestly have no idea about AA. Currently have a family member going through it, and he has seen improvements. But I also have heard many negative things about it. Honestly, the overwhelming majority of things I have heard have been negative. But that is not my biggest beef with the OP. My biggest disagreement is with alcoholism not being taken seriously as a disease. I know there are studies done on both side of this issue but does that mean we should not possibly let the consensus and study the issue further? Also does this mean we should not medically and psychologically treat the issue as a disease

First of all - BEST wishes to that family member of yours!

To address the rest of your post: My sponsor says I have a disease and that disease is indeed alcoholism. I have to listen to my sponsor. ;)
 
Went to a meeting tonight and shared a little - helped a couple of newcomers.

I'm about (Good Orderly Direction willing) to hit my 9th day sober. One day at a time - whomever gets up the earliest has the most time. :)

Am taking the cotton out of my ears, sticking in my mouth and listening these days. :)

My sponsor is a crusty old fart - am going to a meeting tomorrow morning (Good Orderly Direction willing). :)

Sponsor tells me to "buckle my seat belt, because I'm in for a ride." ;)
 
I honestly have no idea about AA. Currently have a family member going through it, and he has seen improvements. But I also have heard many negative things about it. Honestly, the overwhelming majority of things I have heard have been negative. But that is not my biggest beef with the OP. My biggest disagreement is with alcoholism not being taken seriously as a disease. I know there are studies done on both side of this issue but does that mean we should not possibly let the consensus and study the issue further? Also does this mean we should not medically and psychologically treat the issue as a disease
The disease model fits alcoholism well, because when studying alcoholism from a large sample-size it does appear to have a distinctive pathology (ultimately culminating in death). Experienced AA members will also recount this anecdotally, noting there is an underlying sameness to many of the individual stories, even if the details may differ.

But here is the facet (to me) that takes away any doubt that alcoholism is a disease (and it's one of genetic pre-disposition):

Firstly, a great many studies consistently have shown that children & siblings of alcoholics have much higher instances of alcoholism than the general population - this is undisputed. Additionally, there also have been many 'Twins' studies done, and it's been found that both paternal & fraternal twins also have a higher correlation to alcoholism than the general population (obviously, this is to be expected - they're siblings).

But now comes the interesting part - an attempt could be made to argue that due to family physical proximity in these studies, these high incidents of alcoholism correlation could be due to environmental factors. So, in the past few decades there have been several studies done to 'Orphaned Twins", separated at birth from their mother, their families, & each other, and raised separately by non-alcoholics in non-alcoholic homes; and lo & behold! These separated at birth twins also showed the same increased correlation to alcoholism as those raised together with their natural families!

If scientifically accurate (I have no reason to believe otherwise), the 'Orphaned Twins' studies are extremely telling.
 
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