• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Up or Down?

  • Thumbs Up

    Votes: 31 68.9%
  • Thumbs Down

    Votes: 14 31.1%

  • Total voters
    45
Denial works great for a lot of people...

Apparently you've bought into it. Cars serve a demonstrable purpose. If that purpose goes away, virtually everyone will stop driving cars. That does not quality as an addiction. Try again.
 
I think AA helps some people quit drinking and stay sober.
That's a good thing.
Thumbs up.
 
Actually "control" is a prevalent trait in addicts. Alcoholics and addicts constantly have to control their environments as much as possible in order to be enabled. Alcoholics and addicts teach people in their lives how to act, react, and support their dependencies. It's just part of their survival tactics.

And this brings us to another form of addiction not yet talked about in this forum. It's called "Codependency".

Textbook Definition: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

Personally, I'd almost rather be a drunk or junkie. Codependents have to suffer without self-medicating. Feeling like life is totally ****ed up while being sober - sucks.

Let me re-phrase then.... I am a self-control freak. I don't try to control others, just myself. And you know what, for many whether codependent or not feel like life is totally ****ed up while being sober.... I've been there for quite a while now. Problem is, being drunk or high only guarantees it will remain ****ed up. I've never had any sympathy for co-dependent because I've seen where 90% they are also entirely the "enablers" although what I've seen is more like pushing them to use and abuse alcohol and/or drugs in very passive aggressive ways.

I will not now nor ever feel sympathy for co-dependents, they have a choice, they can leave that person and go on with their lives. But instead they find so much power in screwing around with an addict, helping getting clean, then nagging and nudging and pushing about all manner of stupid crap until they re-offend, rinse and repeat forever. Most of the time the addict would be better served if he/she would recognize that they need to get away and stay away from co-dependents, who aren't sick at all, but are taking advantage of the addict's illness, ....the worst kind of asshole.
 
Okaaaaay.

You have never met either of these people and you automatically assume his ex-girlfriend was right?

Have you even been to an AA meeting? If you haven't, then you have NO IDEA what goes on.

I went to CA meetings (cocaine annonymous - a branch of AA, exact same format, similar 12 steps). All they were to me was buddy buddy hug sessions. Most of the meetings were as follows. About 10-20 minutes to blather about the last meeting or 'events' coming up. Then some chit chat about addiction for 10 minutes. Then often someone would come up and spend 20 minutes talking about his/her 'war stories' of what he/she has gone through (like we have all not been their ourselves), then they would have a break, then they would give out the pins (for numbers of days clean), then they would spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about the upcoming CA event and how much they need volunteers. It's just a love in. How the hell does that deal with the underlying causes of our addictions?
Now, I will say, once in a while they would break into small groups and people would talk more in depth about their problems...that I thought was helpful. But it was only once in a while that they would do that.

Yes, if you want 'love and support' (yeah - like it's real love) and people to tell you how swell you are even though you are probably a thief or a mooch because that is the only way you can afford to feed your habit...then that is the place to go.
Me? I want a place where people are supportive but aren't smiling all the time and telling you you are great and a good person. Most crack addicts are not good people. They could become good people. But most are either neglecting their responsibilities or are performing illegal acts to feed their habit; people that would steal from their mother to feed their addiction - these are not good people (though again - they still could become good people).
I want the truth. I want the blunt truth from people that care but are not blind.

And in the end - the only place I could find that was from a mirror.

IMO, AA/CA are just love ins for starry eyed, weak addicts who cannot/will not quit on their own...all funded by the church to try and get more people into the God Club.

If they work for you - fine. But please ask yourself, how can you say you have truly quit if you still need these meetings to keep clean. You have traded one addiction for another (granted, one is FAR better then the other).
You will never truly be free of your habit until you can deal with it on your own. And I believe that the vast majority of people can do that but - like anything truly worthwhile - it is not easy.
And there is the problem. Most addicts want the easy way out (that is usually why they are addicts), and intensive, self-reflection is NOT the easy way out.
But it is - IMO - the only way to truly get out forever.

Has it occurred to you that I might k now what I'm talking about?
 
Well you cannot say that anymore because I did (although technically we have not 'met').

I was doing crack (a lot of it), had lots of money, my health was okay, no dependants and in no legal trouble whatsoever and I quit completely on my own.
I wanted to quit from the first time I tried it. One day I finally got tired of it and realized that it was a bridge to nowhere. Plus, the dot.com crash had started and I thought it wise to cut back on such an expensive 'hobby' while my investments were under duress.

And I have known several people that have quit simply because they were fed up with the lifestyle - not because of legal or health issues.

Fed up with the lifestyle, concerned about money and potential problems are all consequences. If one has NO consequences whatsoever and no potential consequences, and the behavior is enjoyable, there is no reason to stop.

Also, those that I did know that quit because they 'had' to usually went back on it because addictikn is not because of boredom or rebellion, it's because of pain and suffering that an addict is trying to escape from. Just because a court orders you to quit - that does nothing to help the underlying cause of the addiction. In fact, it probably enhances it.

Sometimes it is the court that gets an addict into treatment. Once there, then there is the possibility that it may take.

IMO, in most cases, the ONLY way for an addict to truly kick their addiction (whatever it is) is to want to kick it badly enough - not for others to try and force him/her to kick it.

Certainly, in order to be in recovery, the addict has to want it. But the initial alteration in behavior can and usually does come from some outside source.

And please try and remember - and I mean no offense - but just because because you supposedly counselled addicts, that does not mean for one second you understand them or know what they feel or why they do it.
Only addicts can know what they are going through - just as only someone that has given birth to a child can really know what it is like to go through...you have to experience it directly.

One can certainly understand what an addict goes through without being an addict. You correctly identified the underlying cause... some sort of emotional pain that the addict is trying to cover or run from. Anyone can understand that kind of emotional pain. Different people handle it differently and make different choices around it. But the pain can be understood, regardless of the coping skills (health or unhealthy).
 
Oh great...some know-it-all counsellor who just because he makes money off of other people's misery and apparently thinks he understands it all.

I understand it a whole lot better than you. You just seem to be some addict who is just pissed that he can't use crack anymore and, in a holier than thou way, has decided that he knows what's best for anyone with an addiction.

Gee like I have not run into this type before...not.

I've run into your type plenty of times before. We call them "dry drunks". The only difference between you and an addict is that you don't use anymore. Same issues. Just no drugs.

Having dealt with you before I will not waste my time trying to convince you of anything...the effort would be wasted.

I don't consider demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about a waste. I consider it a public service for anyone here who might read what you write on this topic and take is seriously.

What I will say is that if you need something external to stop you from using again, then that external thing IS a crutch. To say it is not is just counselling gobbledegook that your types use so that those you 'help' feel good about these crutches they use.

Nope. It's not a crutch... anymore than a diabetic who needs insulin uses that insulin as a crutch. Like it or not, addiction is a medical condition and using something like AA to assist with that medical condition is not a crutch... not in the way that you are terming it. Your opinion that an addiction isn't a medical condition, is just that. An opinion, and an uninformed one at that. It speaks more towards your own issues than the issue we are discussing.

And yes, people do quit. If you have not used for 12 years, then you have quit for the 12 years...by the very definition of quit. Yes, you are still an addict...but you have quit. But like anything you quit, you can always start doing it again. Until you die, nothing you quit is forever.

Semantics. You have stopped. You have not quit. Quit indicates a cure.

And, once again, if you have never been addicted to the 'drug' in question (booze, drugs, food, porn, whatever) then it is you who does not understand the subject.
It is the height of arrogance and ignorance to have never done something and then to turn around and tell someone who has done that thing that you know better then they do what they are going through and that you know better then they do how to stop it.

I explained this to you in my last post. It is the height of arrogance to think of yourself as some special snowflake whom most cannot understand. I hear that from addicts all the time. It's an excuse. That's all.

hat's next? Assuming you are a man, are you going to tell women how you know better then they do what childbirth feels like?

Apparently you don't know the difference between physical pain and emotional pain.

Go back to your practice and make more money telling other people about things you have never experienced yourself pal.

We are done here as I am not wasting another minute on your know-it-all, arrogant nonsense.

Good day.

Let me explain it to you. You came in here with some holier than thou arrogance, based on your personal experience and tried to pass it off as truth. Firstly, I am far more arrogant than you, I'm better at it, and your personal experience in no way proves your position. You seem to believe that because your experience was terrible, that discounts AA as viable. THAT is the height of arrogance, but the problem with your arrogance is that it has no basis in logic. That's the difference between your arrogance and mine. Now, all you seem to be capable of doing is making invalid assumptions. And I will continue to demonstrate that they make no sense. Feel free to ignore my posts, but you can count on me NOT doing the same if you try to arrogantly present your experiences as FACT again.
 
Has it occurred to you that I might k now what I'm talking about?

He keeps making these preposterous assumptions that just support his position... but are nothing but assumptions nonetheless. AA works for many. Doesn't work for some. It didn't work for him. And that last fact is irrelevant to a global assessment on AA.
 
Let me explain it to you. You came in here with some holier than thou arrogance, based on your personal experience and tried to pass it off as truth. Firstly, I am far more arrogant than you, I'm better at it, and your personal experience in no way proves your position. You seem to believe that because your experience was terrible, that discounts AA as viable. THAT is the height of arrogance, but the problem with your arrogance is that it has no basis in logic. That's the difference between your arrogance and mine. Now, all you seem to be capable of doing is making invalid assumptions. And I will continue to demonstrate that they make no sense. Feel free to ignore my posts, but you can count on me NOT doing the same if you try to arrogantly present your experiences as FACT again.

I feel almost the exact same way and took issue with the "crutch" comment as well. The thing about being an addict is it makes you want to believe that you get it - "it" meaning everything about addiction. Unfortunately, everything is subjective and while it's fine to talk about your experiences (I appreciate anybody who is willing to admit to being or having been an addict) it's better to say "in my experience..." rather than something like "here's how it is..."

Like I said in my previous posts, there is no right and wrong. There is no cure. The vast, vast majority of addicts and alcoholics don't respond well to treatment. And the people who follow the most successful treatment plans, such as methadone maintenance for opiate addicts, are the most looked down upon. I am not an alcoholic but I have family members who are, and I've been to AA, and I can understand why somebody would not like it but we - and especially the addicts and former addicts - should not be slamming it.
 
Most of the "new recruits" are young and court ordered. Typical college age-- reckless mistake-- but brainwashed to believe "they have a disease" that is "lifelong!"

Talk about job security...:roll:

AA/NA do at least as much harm as they do "good."
There is that. A person I know got popped for a DUI a few years ago. He had to be assessed to see if he had a problem and needed treatment, or if it was a fluke and no treatment needed.

Guess who got to do the assessment? The same people who did the treatments.

Guess what the assessment concluded? Surprise!... treatment was "necessary".

I have since heard that the slightest thing makes treatment necessary, and conclusions of no treatment necessary are pretty much non-existent.
 
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

Anecdotes are often nice stories, but not evidence in a debate. They are proof of nothing as they are an example of "ONE" and as most rules have exceptions, an anecdote can be nothing but one of those exceptions. Unless the proposition includes "ALL" or "NONE" we have to accept the anecdote as nothing by a nice story. AA will never tell you they have a 100% success rate nor will they tell you that they are the ONLY path (they will tell you they are the BEST path).

So, my mere response is "that's nice".
 
Last edited:
It's not AA's fault the judicial system refers people there. Your irritation should be with the judicial system for even trying to refer addicts anywhere.

It seems you and some are trying to find something objectionable about it. In the grand scheme of things they are the least deserving of scathing criticism.
They work together (generally), so it's partially their fault.
 
Anecdotes are often nice stories, but not evidence in a debate. They are proof of nothing as they are an example of "ONE" and as most rules have exceptions, an anecdote can be nothing but one of those exceptions. Unless the proposition includes "ALL" or "NONE" we have to accept the anecdote as nothing by a nice story. AA will never tell you they have a 100% success rate nor will they tell you that they are the ONLY path (they will tell you they are the BEST path).

So, my mere response is "that's nice".

Thanks for disagreeing with my OP in a nice way - I respect your opinion. :)
 
Everybody is addicted to something. I'd be willing to bet you're addicted to the air in your car's tires.
I can't help but laugh at people who claim to have no addictions or shortcomings. I'm sorry, but everybody has something with which they struggle.
 
Is someone profitting? Corruption? Conflict of interest?
In my previous post (#109) I pointed out a local AA-like outfit that gets assigned by the court to asses people's "need" for treatment. They also get to do the treatment, and pretty nobody ever gets a pass, so yes, I'd say there's a conflict of interest.

I will add that this court appointed status is the vast bulk of their business overall. They are legally classified as a non-profit, but in the real world they have to make enough of a "profit" to meet expanses, pay salaries (which is incentive enough to cause a conflict of interest, keeping oneself employed), and so on.
 
While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.

But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.

A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.

AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.
 
While I'm not religious, I will support any institution that helps people overcome addiction.

Alcohol is one of the worst addictions in this country, and it is something many suffer from. It leads to financial ruin. It kills thousands upon thousands. Why knock something that helps many? I personally know several success stories I could point at that show me AA works. I myself ha e been to meetings. Like I said, I'm not religious. But there was less religion there are more community.
 
While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.

But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.

A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.

AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.

Thanks for your respectful post - will consider what you said.
 
While I'm not religious, I will support any institution that helps people overcome addiction.

Alcohol is one of the worst addictions in this country, and it is something many suffer from. It leads to financial ruin. It kills thousands upon thousands. Why knock something that helps many? I personally know several success stories I could point at that show me AA works. I myself ha e been to meetings. Like I said, I'm not religious. But there was less religion there are more community.

That's the thing. While God will be acknowledged in the AA program overall and in the steps, God can be whatever the person wants to make it. The higher power can be a concept or a possibility or the group itself or whatever--there is never a requirement that anybody embrace religion at all in order to participate in the program. Members of the group are just expected to respect the rights of those who are. It has been an interesting phenomenon for me, though, to watch how many non believers or non religious, after some time in the program, started to warm up to the possibility that the higher power was real. There are exceptions of course, but nobody is ever disrespected for not being a 'believer'.
 
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

It's apparent you missed one of the more important Traditions in AA, despite the years you claim you were involved in it.

They have no opinion on outside issues, including your experience with the program. As such, the only comments your likely to get will be from people who don't know any better, or don't have any experience with it, so I don't know how much ammunition your going to gather to throw back at your girlfriend.

Since your girlfriend thought you would benefit from such a program, I wish you well in dealing with whatever issue she thought you need help with.
 
It's apparent you missed one of the more important Traditions in AA, despite the years you claim you were involved in it.

They have no opinion on outside issues, including your experience with the program. As such, the only comments your likely to get will be from people who don't know any better, or don't have any experience with it, so I don't know how much ammunition your going to gather to throw back at your girlfriend.

Since your girlfriend thought you would benefit from such a program, I wish you well in dealing with whatever issue she thought you need help with.

Point taken. And thanks for the well wishes. :)
 
I feel almost the exact same way and took issue with the "crutch" comment as well. The thing about being an addict is it makes you want to believe that you get it - "it" meaning everything about addiction. Unfortunately, everything is subjective and while it's fine to talk about your experiences (I appreciate anybody who is willing to admit to being or having been an addict) it's better to say "in my experience..." rather than something like "here's how it is..."

Like I said in my previous posts, there is no right and wrong. There is no cure. The vast, vast majority of addicts and alcoholics don't respond well to treatment. And the people who follow the most successful treatment plans, such as methadone maintenance for opiate addicts, are the most looked down upon. I am not an alcoholic but I have family members who are, and I've been to AA, and I can understand why somebody would not like it but we - and especially the addicts and former addicts - should not be slamming it.

Agreed. There is no "cure", there are only "treatments". You are right... most addicts remain active and no treatment really helps. But AA is one of the more successful ones out there. It certainly isn't for everyone, and there are people who do very well without it. But, as you said, slamming AA makes no sense, since it does have some effectiveness.
 
In my previous post (#109) I pointed out a local AA-like outfit that gets assigned by the court to asses people's "need" for treatment. They also get to do the treatment, and pretty nobody ever gets a pass, so yes, I'd say there's a conflict of interest.

I will add that this court appointed status is the vast bulk of their business overall. They are legally classified as a non-profit, but in the real world they have to make enough of a "profit" to meet expanses, pay salaries (which is incentive enough to cause a conflict of interest, keeping oneself employed), and so on.

There are no salaries with AA. There is no one providing treatment. AA is a support group. "Treatment" indicates professionals providing this. That is not what is happening in AA. Courts assign people to go to AA meeting because they have seen it be helpful. AA really doesn't get anything out of it.
 
While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.

But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.

A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.

AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.

Awesome post. Right on target.
 
Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.



AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.
 
Back
Top Bottom