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Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?

Is America the greatest Country anymore? Or do you agree with Will?


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I agree with you entirely, but... Muhammed Ali? He WAS the greatest, wasn't he?

Till he came along, we had to make do with Alexander, Catherine, Peter and Alfred.
 
Once again, you don't seem to have any idea what your political opponents actually have to say. That entitlement that you oppose, it only exists in your own mind. We don't say anything like that. We don't advocate anything like that. The only ones expressing that kind of entitlement are the Tea Partiers whining that they don't want to pay taxes anymore, despite using government to enrich their lives for decades and passing the bill on to my generation. The entitled person is the one with the "keep your government hands off my Medicare" sign.

Exactly...it's bizarre that the generation that benefited from the most robust federal and state government in the history of the US turned all "anti-government" after they got older and would have to start paying back. Of course, as you mention...that doesn't include SS and Medicare....they "earned" that.

I read an article calling it the "locusts" generation and honestly, as the years go by that's exactly what it's proven to be.
 
Correct. If the U.S. doesn't demand an apology or reparations from Afghanistan for harboring al-Qaeda after it bombed our embassies and killed thousands of innocent people on 9/11, then it shouldn't presume that it did nothing wrong. But do we owe Afghanistan an apology for excising this cancer from the country? No.
Sadly at least 18,000 to 20,000 civilians have died in the course of this "excision". Civilian casualties in the war in Afghanistan (2001
So we can assume that there at least 18,000 to 20,000 other people in Afghanistan who are very upset about American and allied attacks on their country. These civilian casualties are breeding the next generation of fundamentalists. A life is a life - and a US or British life is not worth more than a life of someone in the Middle East without a voice.

Have a look also t Malala and Nabila: worlds apart - Al Jazeera English which tells the story of Nabila, an 8 year old Afghan whose grandmother was killed by a US drone and who made it all the way from Afghanistan to Capitol Hill to address a Congressional hearing about it - just 5 representatives turned up. Here's an extract from the article below:

"The unmanned aircraft released its deadly payload onto the Rehman family, and in an instant the lives of these children were transformed into a nightmare of pain, confusion and terror. Seven children were wounded, and Nabila's grandmother was killed before her eyes, an act for which no apology, explanation or justification has ever been given.
This past week Nabila, her schoolteacher father, and her 12-year-old brother travelled to Washington DC to tell their story and to seek answers about the events of that day. However, despite overcoming incredible obstacles in order to travel from their remote village to the United States, Nabila and her family were roundly ignored. At the congressional hearing where they gave testimony, only five out of 430 representatives showed up. In the words of Nabila's father to those few who did attend: "My daughter does not have the face of a terrorist and neither did my mother. It just doesn't make sense to me, why this happened… as a teacher, I wanted to educate Americans and let them know my children have been injured."

The translator broke down in tears while recounting their story, but the government made it a point to snub this family and ignore the tragedy it had caused to them. Nabila, a slight girl of nine with striking hazel eyes, asked a simple question in her testimony: "What did my grandmother do wrong?" There was no one to answer this question, and few who cared to even listen. Symbolic of the utter contempt in which the government holds the people it claims to be liberating, while the Rehmans recounted their plight, Barack Obama was spending the same time meeting with the CEO of weapons manufacturer Lockheed Martin."
 
They beheaded citizens of ours. That alone is enough in my opinion to obliterate every last one of them. And, yes, we've been killing terrorists for a long time, and we might have to keep killing them, but every one you eliminate is one less threat you have to deal with. The fact that we haven't had another 9/11 is evidence that we must be doing something right. On the other hand, I'd like to see your evidence that if we didn't confront them with force they wouldn't pose a threat. At some point I think ISIS will be relegated to the dustbin of history. I can't say when, but it will happen, most likely because some people with a lot of weapons just decide to kick ass. Whether we'll be included among the ass kickers I can't say.

Yes. I am amazed by those on the left who preach: "Don't rock the boat! You'll piss them off!" That kind of logic nearly led to Great Britain's demise as Neville Chamberlain attempted appeasement. And I agree that ISIS will fall...sooner or later. The kind of barbarity that they are practicing will be lead to their demise. The only question is how many beheadings of Christians and moderate muslims will it take before the west steps in? Obama is more concerned with honoring his pledge to the far left not to put boots on the ground then preventing another holocaust.
 
I quoted John Kerry's exact words from the article in which he accepted that the USA had committed war crimes in the USA. His views on the whole article are not recorded.

So I am now possibly a "fool" who writes "nonsense"? Ad hominem stuff which again dodges the issue - getting uncomfortable is it? Shall we debate this properly and get into the definition of "war crime" and see how many of the estimated 20 million deaths caused by America in the last 50 years come within that category? Or, if you want, you can admit that the USA has committed war crimes in its recent past which have hugely dented its "greatness", and we can call it quits.

Anyone who takes John Kerry's acceptance of American War crime accusations seriously is living in la la land. Kerry does not exactly have a history of credibility on the issue. That's why the swift boat veterans tore him a new ass**** when he ran for president in 2004 touting his military service. He slandered his fellow soldiers in Vietnam with accusations dreamed up by the so-called Winter Soldier investigation which was made up of primarily of soldiers claiming to have seen those alleged war crimes. It turned out that they had not even served a day in Vietnam. One of them did not even serve in the military.
 
Once again, you don't seem to have any idea what your political opponents actually have to say. That entitlement that you oppose, it only exists in your own mind. We don't say anything like that. We don't advocate anything like that. The only ones expressing that kind of entitlement are the Tea Partiers whining that they don't want to pay taxes anymore, despite using government to enrich their lives for decades and passing the bill on to my generation. The entitled person is the one with the "keep your government hands off my Medicare" sign.

You are making it up as you go along. The Tea Party is not suggesting that we do not pay taxes.
 
Anyone who takes John Kerry's acceptance of American War crime accusations seriously is living in la la land. Kerry does not exactly have a history of credibility on the issue. That's why the swift boat veterans tore him a new ass**** when he ran for president in 2004 touting his military service. He slandered his fellow soldiers in Vietnam with accusations dreamed up by the so-called Winter Soldier investigation which was made up of primarily of soldiers claiming to have seen those alleged war crimes. It turned out that they had not even served a day in Vietnam. One of them did not even serve in the military.
John Kerry's quotes were a small part of the article, which included a long list of war crimes alleged against the US. If it makes it any easier, then we could both have a look at the list of US war crimes on this list, choose just one to debate, and let each other know. I didn't mention Korea before - several million dead during US rule. But choose any country and allegation listed and we'll see if the allegations of war crimes stand up.
List of US War Crimes
 
That's a good post. I am not usually given to throwing savage accusations at America for its own sake, but when Americans crow about being the greatest, they deserve to be dragged off their pedestals and I'm prepared to be merciless on this thread to achieve that aim. The Scots do the same to us English in similar situations and we deserve no less. I know plenty of Scots among my own family and friends, and when English people are not asserting their superiority, then many Scots are willing to freely pay us some genuine compliments, as equals. When we go looking for compliments, then unsurprisingly the opposite happens.

Thank you, and like yourself I am reserving no particular bile for Americans, for whom - having enjoyed a certain amount of time in their society - I have a particular liking.

That there are braggarts amongst them should come as no surprise - those are to be found amongst the insecure in every society - and the phenomenon is more understandable in US society for a number of reasons.

The first being that it is the wealthiest and most influential society currently on earth - that can easily generate a sense of superiority amongst those who do not analyse the matter any further.

Then, given the fact that only 30% of Americans have ever held a passport (compared to 75% of Brits) and the attitude I encountered while there - encapsulated by a similar statement to this - "Why should I travel overseas when I can experience everything the world has to offer right here - if I want to see Chinese, I can go to San Francisco, if I want to experience Italy I can go to the Italian quarter of New York ..." a certain parochialness is to be expected.

But perhaps most significant, is the inbuilt propaganda system (not uncommon in other societies either,) which tells every American, from the time he/she can understand language, that everything American is ipso facto inherently superior to everything emanating from any other society. From their form of governance, through their laws, to their cultural practices, even extending to their automobiles. It is a very strong willed and well informed child who is capable of resisting such indoctrination, and it is a great credit to Americans that so many do (as evinced by some who post here).

So I have both admiration and liking for the American people - the braggarts aside - as who can deny their friendliness, general good will, and enormous generosity - not necessarily at the governmental level, but Americans personally contribute at the per capita level more than any other nationality of which I know. I wish them every success.

And, LOL, as someone who is half Edinburgh Scots, and half southern English, I have to say that the Scots do tend to go overboard in their criticism of the English. I fear the Scots, a bit like the Americans, tend to believe their national mythology a smidge too much. People such as William Wallace were not quite the sainted hero he is depicted as, and in fact he achieved bugger all. Have a look at the flag which flies over Edinburgh castle if you want to see the eventual extent of his victories. :2razz:
 
So we can assume that there at least 18,000 to 20,000 other people in Afghanistan who are very upset about American and allied attacks on their country.

I noticed the 18,000-20,000 figure you cite is civilian deaths from both coalition forces and insurgents. It's somewhat disingenuous to imply that Afghans are upset with coalition forces for the total of these deaths when a large portion resulted from an enemy that's indiscriminate in its use of force and, in fact, deliberately targets civilians. Conveniently, in the column totaling deaths from insurgents there are lowercase "n/a"s inserted for the first five years. But we can assume that insurgent targeted assassinations and bombings accounted for a significant number of deaths. Also, I wonder how many of these "civilians" were actually insurgents or people in close proximity to insurgents or terorists. How many times were insurgents stripped of their weapons once they were dispatched, with the Taliban scoring a propaganda coup by claiming they were civilians? We'll never know. And do you think the Taliban gave a **** if kids we're playing in the street near mortars or IEDs? But you know as well as I do that the coalition, unlike the Taliban, took extraordinary measures and used some of the strictest rules of engagement ever devised to avoid civilian casualties. Can the same be said of our enemy? No.

Finally, if Afghans don't want Americans fighting in their country then they need to ensure that it's not used a staging post to carry out attacks against our country.
 
But perhaps most significant, is the inbuilt propaganda system (not uncommon in other societies either,) which tells every American, from the time he/she can understand language, that everything American is ipso facto inherently superior to everything emanating from any other society. From their form of governance, through their laws, to their cultural practices, even extending to their automobiles. :shock:

I have to take exception with this one. There was a time when if you wanted to be the butt of a joke you bought a Chrysler, Ford, or AMC vehicle. Anyone remember the Pacer? Or the Pinto? Or the Cordoba? Of the Zephyr? These cars sucked balls. Only in recent years have domestic manufacturers made cars once again that Americans will buy, although they've always loved their American trucks and SUVs. Personally, I drive an eleven-year-old Camry and will probably drive it until the wheels falls off. I can't imagine ever owning a Ford again. One Taurus was enough.
 
I have to take exception with this one. There was a time when if you wanted to be the butt of a joke you bought a Chrysler, Ford, or AMC vehicle. Anyone remember the Pacer? Or the Pinto? Or the Cordoba? Of the Zephyr? These cars sucked balls. Only in recent years have domestic manufacturers made cars once again that Americans will buy, although they've always loved their American trucks and SUVs. Personally, I drive an eleven-year-old Camry and will probably drive it until the wheels falls off. I can't imagine ever owning a Ford again. One Taurus was enough.

Fair comment - I was guided (or was that misguided?) by a number of claims from seemingly patriotic Americans who claimed to own large US manufactured SUVs and things like Ford F150s and big Cadillacs. There was much sneering at German cars such as Mercedes, Audi and BMW, and I assumed from that, Americans considered their automotive products pre-eminent. I must confess I know very little about American cars, and have not heard of a Pacer, a Pinto, or a Cordoba. The only Cordoba of which I am aware is in Spain. :)
 
John Kerry's quotes were a small part of the article, which included a long list of war crimes alleged against the US. If it makes it any easier, then we could both have a look at the list of US war crimes on this list, choose just one to debate, and let each other know. I didn't mention Korea before - several million dead during US rule. But choose any country and allegation listed and we'll see if the allegations of war crimes stand up.
List of US War Crimes

the US never ruled Korea. You are simply delusional.
 
Fair comment - I was guided (or was that misguided?) by a number of claims from seemingly patriotic Americans who claimed to own large US manufactured SUVs and things like Ford F150s and big Cadillacs. There was much sneering at German cars such as Mercedes, Audi and BMW, and I assumed from that, Americans considered their automotive products pre-eminent. I must confess I know very little about American cars, and have not heard of a Pacer, a Pinto, or a Cordoba. The only Cordoba of which I am aware is in Spain. :)

In fairness, I think there were regional differences regarding domestic versus foreign cars that have somewhat faded in recent years. People in the Midwest tended to be more loyal to domestic manufacturers because of the large manufacturing presence and blue-collar workforce there at the time. For many years if you lived in Michigan you took your life into your hands if you bought a Japanese car. ;) On the other hand, sneering at Detroit products in California was pretty common. My stepdad was from Detroit. He was a "Ford man." After he passed away, one of the first things my mom did was trade in a Ford E-Series van and Freestyle for a Volkswagen Tiguan. She loves it. :) And here's a Pacer, the so-called "Hamster-mobile" or "Pregnant Egg":

amc pacer.jpg
 
That was simply a temporary military occupation. By that reasoning the US "ruled" part of Germany for more than 40 years.

The point is the civilian deaths caused by the Americans during their occupation of Korea, however you call it. Death is more real than semantics.
 
In fairness, I think there were regional differences regarding domestic versus foreign cars that have somewhat faded in recent years. People in the Midwest tended to be more loyal to domestic manufacturers because of the large manufacturing presence and blue-collar workforce there at the time. For many years if you lived in Michigan you took your life into your hands if you bought a Japanese car. ;) On the other hand, sneering at Detroit products in California was pretty common. My stepdad was from Detroit. He was a "Ford man." After he passed away, one of the first things my mom did was trade in a Ford E-Series van and Freestyle for a Volkswagen Tiguan. She loves it. :) And here's a Pacer, the so-called "Hamster-mobile" or "Pregnant Egg":

View attachment 67184056

Thanks! LOL, that's one car that has had a big hit from the ugly stick. :D

And yeah, Volkswagen make excellent cars (though I am not a fan of SUVs). :)
 
John Kerry's quotes were a small part of the article, which included a long list of war crimes alleged against the US. If it makes it any easier, then we could both have a look at the list of US war crimes on this list, choose just one to debate, and let each other know. I didn't mention Korea before - several million dead during US rule. But choose any country and allegation listed and we'll see if the allegations of war crimes stand up.
List of US War Crimes

It is a whacko nutjob site. I can't take it seriously.
 
Once again, you don't seem to have any idea what your political opponents actually have to say. That entitlement that you oppose, it only exists in your own mind. We don't say anything like that. We don't advocate anything like that. The only ones expressing that kind of entitlement are the Tea Partiers whining that they don't want to pay taxes anymore, despite using government to enrich their lives for decades and passing the bill on to my generation. The entitled person is the one with the "keep your government hands off my Medicare" sign.

You realize that Social Security and Medicare were pet programs of the progressive administrations of FDR and Lyndon Johnson respectively, right? Liberals have spent the better part of my life touting how wonderful and successful these programs were. But now do I detect a bit of discontent in the progressive house? Why is that? Isn't the $700 billion Obama yanked out of Medicare to fund HIS pet program enough? :confused:
 
It is a whacko nutjob site. I can't take it seriously.

That's becoming a theme on this thread - just dismissing evidence out of hand which refers to widespread killings of civilians by the US. I was suggesting that we take one of the topics listed on the website and discuss it. I conclude that this is too difficult for people who are intent on maintaining that the USA is the "greatest" country.
 
Maybe the ones who believe that our country is not the greatest,would be best suited to find another country to live in.Funny how if were not that great of a country,Illegal immigrants wouldn't be dying to reach our soil.
 
Maybe the ones who believe that our country is not the greatest,would be best suited to find another country to live in.Funny how if were not that great of a country,Illegal immigrants wouldn't be dying to reach our soil.
Desperation is surely a poor indicator. You don't support the 'right to disagree'?
 
Maybe the ones who believe that our country is not the greatest,would be best suited to find another country to live in.Funny how if were not that great of a country,Illegal immigrants wouldn't be dying to reach our soil.

OTOH, perhaps the ones who don't believe your country is the greatest are those whom you should encourage the most to stay. Perfection has not yet been attained in this world, but those who see the imperfections in our respective societies are the only ones who are likely to improve those societies. "I am the greatest!" is a mindless and complacent attitude which removes any motivation for improvement.

And may I remind you that 'illegal immigrants' - known as 'refugees' in the civilised world - are dying to reach any country, American, European, or Australasian, wherein they may be safe, not commercially enslaved, and not starve to death.
 
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