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Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 39.0%

  • No

    Votes: 27 45.8%

  • Other

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • Total voters
    59
Animals are property. "Suffering" is irrelevant.
 
Animals are currently referred to by law as property.
Those calling for animal rights want society to view animals as persons and not as property.
This is wrong, because animals are closer in their essence to a table or a television than they are to human beings.
They don't think like we do, they aren't capable of thinking like we do, nor will they be in a million years from now.
So until they evolve, they should remain as property.

Regarding animal ethics, which is a different subject, clearly animals should be protected by law from human cruelty, but that's pretty much it.
 
Apocalypse said:
Animals are currently referred to by law as property.
Those calling for animal rights want society to view animals as persons and not as property.
This is wrong, because animals are closer in their essence to a table or a television than they are to human beings.
They don't think like we do, they aren't capable of thinking like we do, nor will they be in a million years from now.
So until they evolve, they should remain as property.

Regarding animal ethics, which is a different subject, clearly animals should be protected by law from human cruelty, but that's pretty much it.
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if your tv broke down or your dog died ,in which one of these cases would you feel sad ?
 
Medusa said:
if your tv broke down or your dog died ,in which one of these cases would you feel sad ?
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My dog is my best friend in the world.

When I said that animals are closer in their essence to a TV or a table than they are to human beings I've meant that they are closer to not having thoughts and feelings at all, i.e. being objects, than they are to having the complex emotional and thinking capabilities that the average human being has. That clearly doesn't mean they have no feelings or emotions at all the way an object doesn't have.
 
spud_meister said:
I do believe you're making the same argument I am, just from a different spot.
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Could very well be. I am an animal lover who has had all sorts of animals through the years from chimps, spider monkeys, racoon's and a boa constrictor. Now I have ten rescue dogs including two hybrid wolves that I raised from 12 days old and two kitties. My motto is that a house is not a home without some critters! :lol:
 
spud_meister said:
So why do you believe my snake is less deserving of rights than my girlfriends beagle?
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Well, according to you, he's an idiot and, by your own argument, dumb things don't deserve rights.
 
Apocalypse said:
My dog is my best friend in the world.

When I said that animals are closer in their essence to a TV or a table than they are to human beings I've meant that they are closer to not having thoughts and feelings at all, i.e. being objects, than they are to having the complex emotional and thinking capabilities that the average human being has. That clearly doesn't mean they have no feelings or emotions at all the way an object doesn't have.
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You view your "best friend" as something akin to a table worth no more consideration. What a lucky dog.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Animals, by being living creatures, are far more like us than they are like a table or something. On the contrary, I think someone denies or who's cold to or unconcerned about animal suffering and views them as mere property to be treated and disposed of in any manner has more on common with a table than they do with me.
 
Apocalypse said:
My dog is my best friend in the world.

When I said that animals are closer in their essence to a TV or a table than they are to human beings I've meant that they are closer to not having thoughts and feelings at all, i.e. being objects, than they are to having the complex emotional and thinking capabilities that the average human being has. That clearly doesn't mean they have no feelings or emotions at all the way an object doesn't have.
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btw, you are aware you use the exact same argument as slavers did? "The negro is inferior, ape-like, and my property, to do with as i please." In fact, they were legally property.

Before we get all high nosed about our status as a uniquely 'intelligent' species, it's important to consider that our genetics are 98% identical to chimps, and that dolphins are arguably self aware. Pets have been known to rescue their human companions. Would a ****ing table do that? Apes have made effective use of tools and learned sign language. Some are plenty smarter than most humans i've met.

About the only things humans are capable of that no animal species is, to my knowledge, is the ability to form some kind of 'philosophy' and to construct objects many times larger than us. However, 99% of philosophies have proven useless or dead wrong, and these objects have also unleashed a floodgate towards runaway pollution and weapons of mass destruction. Our ability to solve our way out of self-created problems is seriously in doubt. I don't see any animal species ****ing up the planet quite like humans, so let's pay them some respect.

As to those emotionless objects you dismiss as inferior, computer AI is expected to soon far exceed the thinking capabilities of any humans. By your logic, we will ourselves be closer to tables and no more than property to the computers
 
X Factor said:
You view your "best friend" as something akin to a table worth no more consideration. What a lucky dog.
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That's hardly what I said.
Saying that a meteor is closer in its average velocity to zero velocity than to the speed of light does not mean that it has zero velocity or that it cannot be labeled as "insanely fast".

I couldn't disagree with this more. Animals, by being living creatures, are far more like us than they are like a table or something. On the contrary, I think someone denies or who's cold to or unconcerned about animal suffering and views them as mere property to be treated and disposed of in any manner has more on common with a table than they do with me.
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And again that's not what I said.
I believe that humans are so complex and advanced in both their IQ and their EQ that it's ridiculous to compare them to any other form of living beings, such as a dog, and yes because of that animals are closer to the definition of "property" than they are to the definition of "persons", so looking to change the law so it recognizes animals as "persons" is morally wrong in my mind.

You're engaging this from an emotional point of view and if I'd have done the same I'd share your opinion, but I don't.
 
chromium said:
btw, you are aware you use the exact same argument as slavers did? "The negro is inferior, ape-like, and my property, to do with as i please." In fact, they were legally property.
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Only that black people aren't animals and they are actually just as human as white people are, so unless you're claiming animals are mislabeled as inferior to humans when they aren't you're not having a point here.

Before we get all high nosed about our status as a uniquely 'intelligent' species, it's important to consider that our genetics are 98% identical to chimps, and that dolphins are arguably self aware. Pets have been known to rescue their human companions. Would a ****ing table do that? Apes have made effective use of tools and learned sign language. Some are plenty smarter than most humans i've met.
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Just like X you have taken to the belief that because I said animals are closer to an object than they are to a person that suddenly means they have no emotions or thinking capabilities at all. I haven't said it, so do concern yourself with what I said and not with what you'd like to have me say eh.

About the only things humans are capable of that no animal species is, to my knowledge, is the ability to form some kind of 'philosophy' and to construct objects many times larger than us. However, 99% of philosophies have proven useless or dead wrong, and these objects have also unleashed a floodgate towards runaway pollution and weapons of mass destruction. Our ability to solve our way out of self-created problems is seriously in doubt. I don't see any animal species ****ing up the planet quite like humans, so let's pay them some respect.
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If they were half intelligent as human beings are they would have ****ed up the planet quite like humans do. And the way you label human intelligence as simply being the abilities to "create useless objects and philosophies" is ridiculous. We've extended our life length by more than twice in few millenniums, we're capable of traveling out to space, what the hell are you even talking about. Show me a chimp that understands Einstein's theory of relativity or Newton's three laws of motions and then we'll talk.

As to those emotionless objects you dismiss as inferior, computer AI is expected to soon far exceed the thinking capabilities of any humans. By your logic, we will ourselves be closer to tables and no more than property to the computers
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I don't believe that the ability to create a true AI is something that is within our technological reach. Regardless even if it could happen no one can know what level of intelligence will such machines reach or if they'll exceed human beings at all, and not just be humans with a much faster calculation speed.
 
Apocalypse said:
That's hardly what I said.
Saying that a meteor is closer in its average velocity to zero velocity than to the speed of light does not mean that it has zero velocity or that it cannot be labeled as "insanely fast".



And again that's not what I said.
I believe that humans are so complex and advanced in both their IQ and their EQ that it's ridiculous to compare them to any other form of living beings, such as a dog, and yes because of that animals are closer to the definition of "property" than they are to the definition of "persons", so looking to change the law so it recognizes animals as "persons" is morally wrong in my mind.

You're engaging this from an emotional point of view and if I'd have done the same I'd share your opinion, but I don't.
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Yes, animals strongly engage my emotions. I see in my dogs a lot of things I can identify with. I know they get hungry as I do, sometimes they're needing extra attention and sometimes they get sick or hurt. I know they have thoughts and emotions. All things that I experience. You think your dog, living, breathing feeling creature that it is, is only very slightly different than a table when compared to you? No, I believe my dogs have far more in common with me than any inanimate object I have around the house and I have more in common with my dogs than many people.
 
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X Factor said:
Yes, animals strongly engage my emotions. I see in my dogs a lot of things I can identify with. I know they get hungry as I do, sometimes they're needing extra attention and sometimes they get sick or hurt. I know they have thoughts and emotions. All things that I experience. You think your dog, living, breathing feeling creature that it is, is only very slightly different than a table when compared to you? No, I believe my dogs have far more in common with me than any inanimate object I have around the house and I have more in common with my dogs than many people.
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I think just like you do that dogs have emotions, they have thoughts of their own and I can see it all in my dog as well, I just think that human emotions and thinking capabilities are on a whole different level so to grant animals such as dogs the recognition in law that they are "persons" is wrong in my opinion.

Do dogs deserve education then? Should they go to the same schools humans go to? You see how absurd this all can become.
 
Juanita said:
Could very well be. I am an animal lover who has had all sorts of animals through the years from chimps, spider monkeys, racoon's and a boa constrictor. Now I have ten rescue dogs including two hybrid wolves that I raised from 12 days old and two kitties. My motto is that a house is not a home without some critters! :lol:
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I'm an animal lover too, but I can only afford to keep reptiles at the moment, I refuse to get an animal that I may not be able to adequately care for, soon as I can afford to I will be getting dogs and cats and horses and God knows what else. But, back to the thread, we're both arguing creatures deserve rights based on intelligence, I just set the bar higher than you. :lol:
 
X Factor said:
Note to self: keep Jay away from my dogs.
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Some additional notes to XF:

  • I like dogs and dogs like me. I own two.
  • Sentiment does not color or change the fact that your dog is your property.
  • I have the utmost respect for other people's property.
 
Apocalypse said:
Only that black people aren't animals and they are actually just as human as white people are, so unless you're claiming animals are mislabeled as inferior to humans when they aren't you're not having a point here.
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That is what i'm saying yes, would've thought the other paragraphs made that clear.

Apocalypse said:
Just like X you have taken to the belief that because I said animals are closer to an object than they are to a person that suddenly means they have no emotions or thinking capabilities at all. I haven't said it, so do concern yourself with what I said and not with what you'd like to have me say eh.
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Plenty of humans fit this description as well, putting their *special* thinking skills to work with frequent brain farts on twitter. A lot of males in particular still take pride in showing no emotion, and may as well have none

Apocalypse said:
If they were half intelligent as human beings are they would have ****ed up the planet quite like humans do. And the way you label human intelligence as simply being the abilities to "create useless objects and philosophies" is ridiculous. We've extended our life length by more than twice in few millenniums, we're capable of traveling out to space, what the hell are you even talking about. Show me a chimp that understands Einstein's theory of relativity or Newton's three laws of motions and then we'll talk.
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Either they're smart enough to *not* **** up the planet, or a species smarter than humans would've figured out a way to control climate change before it became a crisis.

Few humans understand these things either. You are attributing to the whole species a few accomplishments by truly exceptional humans. How many in your graduating class understood relativity, or how to build a space ship? Even then, our space ships have blown up right after taking off, and relativity is still under revision. For every leap, there's a stumble

Apocalypse said:
I don't believe that the ability to create a true AI is something that is within our technological reach. Regardless even if it could happen no one can know what level of intelligence will such machines reach or if they'll exceed human beings at all, and not just be humans with a much faster calculation speed.
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Computers are already besting the human chess champion, winning jeapordy, driving cars for us. Some of the leaders in this field predict they'll become self aware by 2040
 
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spud_meister said:
Would you treat a snake with the same level of respect you give your dogs?
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Until it tries to bite my ankle with deadly venom, sure. Then i'll plead self defense when i stomp on it
 
spud_meister said:
Would you treat a snake with the same level of respect you give your dogs?
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Probably more. Having encountered a couple rattle snakes where I live, I tend to give snakes a lot of room. Speaking of respect, how can you claim respect for any creature you view as being so stupid as to believe they have zero right to not be abused, hurt, tortured, etc.? (If you haven't claimed that you have respect for animals, just let me know that because that would make sense).
 
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