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Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?

Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?

  • Total voters
    42
SMTA said:
So their reward will be just a Thank You note?

That will be a short line.
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Senate Republicans blocked a bill that would end tax breaks for companies that send jobs overseas.

On Wednesday, the Senate voted 54-42 to end debate on S. 2569, the Bring Jobs Home Act — 60 votes were needed to advance the measure.

Sens. John Walsh (D-Mont.) and Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.) introduced the bill, which would give companies incentives to bring jobs back to the United States, including a tax write-off for the relocating costs and an additional 20 percent credit.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-acti...-block-bill-to-end-tax-breaks-for-outsourcing
 
Goshin said:
Nossir. I wouldn't go so far as to call it treason.... but it damn sure isn't patriotic.
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I don't see how it is one or the other.

Is it patriotic to distort price signals to keep Americans locked into unproductive enterprises, struggling against a higher cost of living?
 
cpwill said:
I don't see how it is one or the other.

Is it patriotic to distort price signals to keep Americans locked into unproductive enterprises, struggling against a higher cost of living?
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Yes it is.Our founders did it.It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you don't have tariffs then you can kiss manufacturing in the country goodbye.
Tariff of 1789 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tariff of 1790 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tariff of 1792 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Poor multi-billionaires and those punitive tariffs. Cos one 50-room mansion will never be enough, yo.

I'm filling up, here.
 
imagep said:
If we did those first things, we likely wouldn't have to worry too much about encouraging saving, as few people would have any money to save.

You do understand that when consumers save more, that means they aren't consuming as much, and thus businesses don't expand, and new jobs aren't created (they are actually destroyed), don't you? And you do realize that when workers recieve less compensation, they spend less and save less don't you?

What you just did was to outline a race to the bottom. In no time we would have third world poverty.
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I wasn't aware that the problem of third world poverty was caused by their citizens not demanding enough. That's quite an interesting proposition.
 
No.

Is the business that stays in America and opens up some big plant on the ghetto side of town and employs 800 illegal aliens anymore "Patriotic"?


I'd say no.



Almost everything that says "Made in America" these days was actually made in Mexico, China or Vietnam and they just use a Made in America tag. It's the same thing with high end suits at high end suit clothing stores such as Brooks Brothers or higher. They're not actually made in USA or Europe they're made in China like the $200 suits only the tags are printed made in USA or they're sent over once completed to USA and in-shop the US seller will make some small adjustment to the finished product and then say it's made in USA. It isn't. There's almost no real manufacturing left in USA beyond ultra unionized auto jobs and those are basically only there thanks to politicians making their bread and butter on them else they'd be gone as well.
 
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phattonez said:
I wasn't aware that the problem of third world poverty was caused by their citizens not demanding enough. That's quite an interesting proposition.
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:( If only they bought more automobiles with the goods or money that they don't have, they'd all be rich as Croesus.
 
MildSteel said:
We now here calls that the U.S. must confront the rise of China. However, China's rise has been facilitated by the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing to places like China, and selling those cheap goods to U.S. consumers. As such, is the outsourcing of jobs overseas patriotic?
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A solution to this problem would be to increase outsourcing to other countries. Indonesia, India, Brazil, Pakistan-a long list. This raises the standard of living in those countries while helping to set up competition to the Chinese companies. And we all do better when the poor overseas increase their living standards.
 
phattonez said:
I wasn't aware that the problem of third world poverty was caused by their citizens not demanding enough. That's quite an interesting proposition.
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It's caused by them not being paid enough and thus not being able to consume enough. Ending poverty is about a country doing whatever it takes to develop it's internal market. I don't really think that's interesting, it's obvious.
 
cpwill said:
:( If only they bought more automobiles with the goods or money that they don't have, they'd all be rich as Croesus.
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Incorrect, however...

If only they had the money to purchase goods with, they wouldn't be poor.
 
imagep said:
It's caused by them not being paid enough and thus not being able to consume enough. Ending poverty is about a country doing whatever it takes to develop it's internal market. I don't really think that's interesting, it's obvious.
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And why aren't they being paid enough? If we raised their minimum wage would that bring them out of poverty?
 
phattonez said:
And why aren't they being paid enough? If we raised their minimum wage would that bring them out of poverty?
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Increasing minimum wage would help in many countries, yes. But that's not the only issue and certainly not the only solution.

Would you not agree that wealthier countries (Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, etc) tend to have better developed internal markets and government created infrastructure than poor countries? Do we not make more and spend more per person?
 
imagep said:
Increasing minimum wage would help in many countries, yes. But that's not the only issue and certainly not the only solution.

Would you not agree that wealthier countries (Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, etc) tend to have better developed internal markets and government created infrastructure than poor countries? Do we not make more and spend more per person?
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Yes we make more, but why are we paid more? You're stuck on the proximal cause and ignoring the ultimate cause. Look at this interesting case study of Bangladesh to see what happened when the minimum wage was raised there.

So Let's Look At What Happens When They Raise The Minimum Wage In Bangladesh - Forbes
 
phattonez said:
Yes we make more, but why are we paid more? You're stuck on the proximal cause and ignoring the ultimate cause. Look at this interesting case study of Bangladesh to see what happened when the minimum wage was raised there.

So Let's Look At What Happens When They Raise The Minimum Wage In Bangladesh - Forbes
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Do you really believe that an increase in minimum wage to $67/mth caused buyers to switch to lower labor cost countries? Really? There are countries where the min wage is less than $67/mth?

Even the article you linked to said "Please note that this doesn’t mean that the minimum wage should not be raised. "

Also, the unemployment rate in Bangladesh has historically always been very low, around 4% - basically full employment, so I doubt that if anyone does lose their job it will take very long to find a new one.

Did you not notice that this article only referenced a couple of cherry picked employers who said that they may modernize their plants as a response to the higher min wage? You think that technology is a bad thing? Wouldn't adding technology make them more productive?

Also, with a GDP growth rate exceeding 12%, it is only common sense that the population should grow wealthier over time, and increased pay is part of that.
 
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imagep said:
Increasing minimum wage would help in many countries, yes. But that's not the only issue and certainly not the only solution.

Would you not agree that wealthier countries (Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, etc) tend to have better developed internal markets and government created infrastructure than poor countries? Do we not make more and spend more per person?
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Oh sure we do, but the countries you mentioned are the innovators vs third world or worse countries. Microsoft changed the world how it functions, along with Steve Jobs and all the rest of the technology gurus. Then take the pharmaceutical industry. I mean the list goes on and on and on.
 
imagep said:
Incorrect, however...
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No, it's correct. If only they would have lots of demand for stuff, they'd be rich. Clearly they are only poor because they don't want things like air conditioning, safe water, automobiles, washing machines, etc.

It's Demand that makes us wealthy, after all.

If only they had the money to purchase goods with, they wouldn't be poor.
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tsk. that's a supply side argument. :naughty
 
cpwill said:
No, it's correct. If only they would have lots of demand for stuff, they'd be rich. Clearly they are only poor because they don't want things like air conditioning, safe water, automobiles, washing machines, etc.

It's Demand that makes us wealthy, after all.



tsk. that's a supply side argument. :naughty
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Having bad living conditions, things like a lack of HVAC, automobiles, and washing machines is pretty much how we define poor these days. If the worker consumer class had more money, they would be able to purchase these things. If their worker consumer class was purchasing these things, they could start creating these things.

They are trapped in poverty until they create the types of policies that will allow their internal market to develop. Just doing the same stuff that they have already been doing will not magically result in prosperity.
 
imagep said:
Having bad living conditions, things like a lack of HVAC, automobiles, and washing machines is pretty much how we define poor these days. If the worker consumer class had more money, they would be able to purchase these things. If their worker consumer class was purchasing these things, they could start creating these things.
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Wrong. Money magically appears when you want things. Ergo, if only they had demand for those objects, they would be able to spur the economy by buying some.

They are trapped in poverty until they create the types of policies that will allow their internal market to develop. Just doing the same stuff that they have already been doing will not magically result in prosperity.
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:shrug: then they should try going deeply into debt in order to purchase overpriced consumer goods.
 
cpwill said:
Wrong. Money magically appears when you want things. Ergo, if only they had demand for those objects, they would be able to spur the economy by buying some.
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Money is created by lending or by the government. What you are talking about isn't demand, it's desire or want, when I say demand, that means actual realized demand, as in sales.


:shrug: then they should try going deeply into debt in order to purchase overpriced consumer goods.
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It works in the US, but we didn't used to have to do that, until wages for the vast majority stagnated during the mid 1970's.

I suspect that you and I have a very different view of what wealth is.
 
imagep said:
Money is created by lending or by the government. What you are talking about isn't demand, it's desire or want, when I say demand, that means actual realized demand, as in sales.
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Ah. So when you say "demand", you are assuming "supply", as in "supply of the surplus resources necessary to engage in trade.

It works in the US
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No, it doesn't. Witness the baby boomer retirees.

but we didn't used to have to do that, until wages for the vast majority stagnated during the mid 1970's.
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We don't have to do that, and wages have grown since the 1970s. What has happened is that A) households have broken up and B) our desires have outgrown our incomes just as our ability to delay pleasure has plummeted.

I suspect that you and I have a very different view of what wealth is.
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I would say that net is definitely involved. Debt isn't a benefit.
 
imagep said:
Do you really believe that an increase in minimum wage to $67/mth caused buyers to switch to lower labor cost countries? Really? There are countries where the min wage is less than $67/mth?
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Probably to a marginal extent, depending on where it was before, but yes. When you look for a supplier, don't you typically go where the prices are cheapest, all else being equal?

Even the article you linked to said "Please note that this doesn’t mean that the minimum wage should not be raised. "
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Because that is his opinion.

Also, the unemployment rate in Bangladesh has historically always been very low, around 4% - basically full employment, so I doubt that if anyone does lose their job it will take very long to find a new one.

Did you not notice that this article only referenced a couple of cherry picked employers who said that they may modernize their plants as a response to the higher min wage? You think that technology is a bad thing? Wouldn't adding technology make them more productive?
Click to expand...

Now you're hitting onto something. Of course technology will make them be more productive. Do you think that a low minimum wage is the reason why they haven't had much investment in technology?

Also, with a GDP growth rate exceeding 12%, it is only common sense that the population should grow wealthier over time, and increased pay is part of that.
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Because wages tend toward marginal productivity! You can't make a third world nation prosperous by demanding a wage comparable to a developed first world nation. All you'll do is increased unemployment and make the population worse off than it was before.
 
MildSteel said:
We now here calls that the U.S. must confront the rise of China. However, China's rise has been facilitated by the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing to places like China, and selling those cheap goods to U.S. consumers. As such, is the outsourcing of jobs overseas patriotic?
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Not really, but it sure helps to keep prices low.
 
Nothing immoral about it. I own a business. If it's cheaper to produce goods in China than it is to produce them in the U.S., then economics dictate that I must do so, I have little to no choice if I want to remain competitive.

As long as people buy on price, manufacturers will be forced to look for the cheapest way to produce the products people want.

One could ask whether it's immoral to BUY products made in China or elsewhere. That argument has more legs IMO.

Unless you are willing to donate or throw out every product you own that was made overseas, you have no right to cast stones as you are the fuel driving the problem.

If you're one of the rare few willing to pay more for Anerican goods, good on you.

Final point: I own a business and that business is my property. I have no moral or legal obligation to hire anyone, regardless of their nationality. If I choose to hire someone in China, what does that matter to you? It's my money, I can spend it how I want.
 
MildSteel said:
That would be a function of your knowledge about the way the products were manufactured, what is available for you to purchase, what you can afford, and the time you have to do the research. Depending on how all that shakes out, it may or it may not be.
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All products that are made in China are marked "made in China."

They have to be, it's the law.

There you go...so now go through your house and throw away everything you own that was made overseas, and sin no more. Then you can cast stones at the rest of us.

If you're willing to live with less material wealth in order to do right by Anerica, I applaud you. You'd be one of a kind.
 
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