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Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?

Is outsourcing jobs overseas patriotic?


  • Total voters
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I know full well what communism is. USSR and Mao's China are prime examples of it. Of course an apologist like you will keep claiming that "Oh but communism has never been implemented"... wrong, those regimes did try but Marx's original ideas were so unworkable that it couldnt get even beyond the theory stage, thats who stupid communism is- it cant even be implemented past a certain point.

Remarkable. I believe I've had to explain basic concepts and history on this forum many times now. The USSR was a marxist-leninist state that was not as bad as you make it out to be, same with Mao's china, which followed Maoism, which is an extension of marxism-leninism, adding on very valuable work to the theory. It literally has never been implemented, you show me one "communist state" that actually says they have achieved communism, communism literally has no state, no money, no social classes, shared ownership of production, you show me where this has happened. Marx's original ideas? I'm sure you know all about Marx, I'm sure you've studied his ideas and him extensively. You're referring to marxism-leninism, which actually made decent progress, the problem is, and people like trotsky realized this, is that communism must be international. Of course, you'll reply with the usual uneducated jargon, I'm used to it by now.
 
I know that, that was the point of the post.

I know they murdered tens of millions of innocent people, had grinding poverty and proven Communism is a failure.

Tens of millions innocent people? Show me where you're getting this number, and how they're all innocent. Grinding poverty? This also exists for billions under capitalism, and it wasn't for the majority in the USSR. You keep saying communism is a failure. Jesus christ.
 
Tens of millions innocent people? Show me where you're getting this number, and how they're all innocent.

"Holodomor" Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33

How are they anything but innocent?

That statement says more about you and the sickness of your ideology.

Why is never people like you who die in such democides...Why?


Grinding poverty? This also exists for billions under capitalism, and it wasn't for the majority in the USSR. You keep saying communism is a failure. Jesus christ.

They have the chance and means of advancing and will if they choose to as the goverment does not impede them.

Yes it was, waiting in line for bread and toilet on top if 14% inflation.

GDP per capita
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,130 (1991 est.) (PPP; 33rd)[4]

Yes they were..

Poverty, Crime, Terror, Enslavement, and Democide, how is that anything but the very definition of failure.
 
Ah, and capitalism hasn't killed millions or caused starvation? Ah, keep saying "communist" way, not knowing anything about history, nor mao/stalin. You don't even know what communism is.

No, it is has not. Name us one time owners took unarmed people out a field and shot them after having them dig their own graves...Name us one time.

Name us one time we had troops take away crops from farmers (who they later shot after the harvest) and the people of a nation to use those funds to build up industry while millions of people starved to death and those that did restored to cannibalism,...Name us one time that happened under capitalism.

holodomor.jpg

Because that happened in the Ukraine. It was called the Holodomor.
 
Hey, it's all about finding that cheap labor, paying cheap wages...

Not necessarily. Many 24 hour operations site staff in countries where the people can work during what is their day time because people are generally more effective during daylight hours.

We site our third shift (US) staff in India for that reason. It does saves some money on salaries/benefits, about 10%, though complying with Indian labor laws is a PITA.

We also have staff in London. In that case it's because the main customers for the service they support are in Europe.
 
Ah, and capitalism hasn't killed millions or caused starvation? Ah, keep saying "communist" way, not knowing anything about history, nor mao/stalin. You don't even know what communism is.

"Holodomor" Ukrainian Famine/Genocide of 1932-33

How are they anything but innocent?

That statement says more about you and the sickness of your ideology.

Why is never people like you who die in such democides...Why?




They have the chance and means of advancing and will if they choose to as the goverment does not impede them.

Yes it was, waiting in line for bread and toilet on top if 14% inflation.

GDP per capita
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,130 (1991 est.) (PPP; 33rd)[4]

Yes they were..

Poverty, Crime, Terror, Enslavement, and Democide, how is that anything but the very definition of failure.

No, it is has not. Name us one time owners took unarmed people out a field and shot them after having them dig their own graves...Name us one time.

Name us one time we had troops take away crops from farmers (who they later shot after the harvest) and the people of a nation to use those funds to build up industry while millions of people starved to death and those that did restored to cannibalism,...Name us one time that happened under capitalism.

holodomor.jpg

Because that happened in the Ukraine. It was called the Holodomor.

No come back?
 
I read an in depth report a few years ago that focused on the effects of our outsourcing (will look for it) but its findings were basically this, Americans would currently have approx 40% less in physical goods for the same amount of money. Outsourcing gave the US economy and its citizens a big boost which started in the 80's and into the 90's as a result of the influx of cheaper goods. Consumers had more purchasing power and more cash to do it with. It was a time of greater wealth for your average citizen, short term it seemed to greatly benefit Americans.

However in the long term (which I believe we are in the transition of now) we will in fact lose overall wealth as our middle and lower class jobs are moved overseas. The lose of national income will begin to out pace the earnings saved by cheaper goods and the only people that will prosper in the long run will be the wealthy who could afford to move their businesses overseas, for the rest of us it will be a gradual downhill slide.
 
Nossir. I wouldn't go so far as to call it treason.... but it damn sure isn't patriotic.

Don't forget greed, Goshin. Someone is getting rich. It isn't the average citizen, but in the end, it will be all of us who have to suffer the consequences.
What's more, to think we are borrowing from China while we are giving away money we don't have, it is just insane.
 
Don't forget greed, Goshin. Someone is getting rich. It isn't the average citizen, but in the end, it will be all of us who have to suffer the consequences.
What's more, to think we are borrowing from China while we are giving away money we don't have, it is just insane.

We all do what satisfies our self interest. What's wrong with getting rich? What's this got to do with China? Oh, I've got it. Your self interest, greed, says that you want someone else to pay your fair share of taxes just because this someone else has more money than you.
 
If the price is the same. Problem is it never is. That is exactly why you buy foreign made goods.

I said all things equal. No it's not exactly why. There are other things involved. Part of the problem is sometimes that's all that is readily available. For example, I took one of my daughter's shopping. We went to a particular store where she likes to buy her clothes. While she was trying on some clothes I started looking at where the things were made. Almost everything came from China.

Wrong again, it has happened many times in the past and further they could shut down all our manufacturing of products in foreign countries. Like shutting down GM from making cars in Europe as an example. You are asking for a trade war.

No I am not wrong. And we only need to look at the trade deficit to see that. If every country that imports to the U.S. where shut out of U.S. markets, they would hurt much more than we would. If we did that and forced the manufacturing to return here, there would be some initial pain, but we would rebound, there would be many more jobs, and the economy would flourish. It might mean less profits for wealthy investors, but it would be great, after some initial pain, for workers.
 
I said all things equal. No it's not exactly why. There are other things involved. Part of the problem is sometimes that's all that is readily available. For example, I took one of my daughter's shopping. We went to a particular store where she likes to buy her clothes. While she was trying on some clothes I started looking at where the things were made. Almost everything came from China.



No I am not wrong. And we only need to look at the trade deficit to see that. If every country that imports to the U.S. where shut out of U.S. markets, they would hurt much more than we would. If we did that and forced the manufacturing to return here, there would be some initial pain, but we would rebound, there would be many more jobs, and the economy would flourish. It might mean less profits for wealthy investors, but it would be great, after some initial pain, for workers.

Yea, you are totally wrong - completely bull**** logic rooted in ignorance.

US businesses could not be forced to return manufacturing to the US for a myriad of reasons.

The higher price of US labor would drive up prices, curtail consumer spending power, and spur inflation.

Increased business costs due to higher labor would drive prices through the roof, and reduce available capital for asset purchases and business expansion - there would be no demand for expansion, as business would reduce investment in human and non-human assets due to plummeting sales and profits.

There would be no 'rebound' - it would be catastrophic failure of the US economy as reduced consumer purchasing power would severely reduce consumption, business would cut back labor forces due to reduced demand, and furloughed workers would drain governmental resources.

Rudimentary economics textbooks would help you to understand some of these basic principles.
 
Yea, you are totally wrong - completely bull**** logic rooted in ignorance.

US businesses could not be forced to return manufacturing to the US for a myriad of reasons.

The higher price of US labor would drive up prices, curtail consumer spending power, and spur inflation.

Increased business costs due to higher labor would drive prices through the roof, and reduce available capital for asset purchases and business expansion - there would be no demand for expansion, as business would reduce investment in human and non-human assets due to plummeting sales and profits.

There would be no 'rebound' - it would be catastrophic failure of the US economy as reduced consumer purchasing power would severely reduce consumption, business would cut back labor forces due to reduced demand, and furloughed workers would drain governmental resources.

Rudimentary economics textbooks would help you to understand some of these basic principles.

Well said

I would add our standard of living would crash.
 
It depends.

It should be considered Patriotic when it takes jobs away from supporters of Liberals and other socialist based ideologies.

I personally try to Buy American, if I know it is from a Right to Work, non-Liberal loving state. I don't see supporters Unions, of the EPA and "Nannie Government as being American. The only ones who really need fear competition are those who are losers who know they cannot compete.
 
Well said

I would add our standard of living would crash.

Why would our standard of living crash?

If we stopped outsourcing as many jobs, then more people in the US would have jobs, which means we would produce more wealth right here in the USA.

Now maybe that would cause a few percent inflation, but like it or not, the Federal Reserve has determined that a few percent of inflation is stimulative to our economy and they strive to achieve such. So if we had a few percent of inflation due to cost push pressure, it would simply help to achieve the Feds goal, without the fed having to intervene by pumping more money into the system - so most likely there would be no additional inflation than what would have occurred without more jobs.

In the mean time, our wages would naturally tend to rise as employers have to compete harder and harder for workers, consumption increases as more people get jobs, production increases as businesses strive to meet demand, and the GDP increases. None of that is a bad thing, it's basically what happens when we have a strong economy.

You think that a strong economy = crash?
 
Imo, it isn't really a matter of patriotism, but one of trying to preserve a viable means of helping people succeed in this country, without having to be highly educated or skilled. Once was the day that the average Joe could get a job in manufacturing, and manage to not only pay his bills, but also enjoy life a little. With the losses of jobs to overseas manufacturing, many of those once-tolerable jobs, for people who didn't have the time, resources, or capability for higher education, are gone.

People in this society are generally unwilling to pay a little more, to help insure that we have decent jobs- most just want to get something for very little money, everyone else be damned. It's a sad state of affairs these days.
 
Why would our standard of living crash?

If we stopped outsourcing as many jobs, then more people in the US would have jobs, which means we would produce more wealth right here in the USA.

Now maybe that would cause a few percent inflation, but like it or not, the Federal Reserve has determined that a few percent of inflation is stimulative to our economy and they strive to achieve such. So if we had a few percent of inflation due to cost push pressure, it would simply help to achieve the Feds goal, without the fed having to intervene by pumping more money into the system - so most likely there would be no additional inflation than what would have occurred without more jobs.

In the mean time, our wages would naturally tend to rise as employers have to compete harder and harder for workers, consumption increases as more people get jobs, production increases as businesses strive to meet demand, and the GDP increases. None of that is a bad thing, it's basically what happens when we have a strong economy.

You think that a strong economy = crash?

Read my post again.

Where were you in 2008?
 
We now here calls that the U.S. must confront the rise of China. However, China's rise has been facilitated by the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing to places like China, and selling those cheap goods to U.S. consumers. As such, is the outsourcing of jobs overseas patriotic?

Is driving business offshore patriotic? No, it's not.

Which POTUS gave China "most flavored nation" trade status? Hmmmm, it's on the tip of my tongue. :roll:
 
Is driving business offshore patriotic? No, it's not.

Which POTUS gave China "most flavored nation" trade status? Hmmmm, it's on the tip of my tongue. :roll:

Businesses are making the decision to move offshore themselves, mainly to reduce labor costs, and avoid taxes.

They are driving themselves out.

Regarding most favored nation status, you obviously do not understand that this is structured reciprocity in economic relationships.

To simplify it for you, the nation who receives MFN status is expected to return the equal trade advantages to the other nation - the concept is rooted in the equality of openness and reduced sanctions.

If the normal balance of trade skews towards one nation due to the excessive economic demands of the other, than that is a natural imbalance due to consumption differences.
 
Businesses are making the decision to move offshore themselves, mainly to reduce labor costs, and avoid taxes.

They are driving themselves out.

Regarding most favored nation status, you obviously do not understand that this is structured reciprocity in economic relationships.

To simplify it for you, the nation who receives MFN status is expected to return the equal trade advantages to the other nation - the concept is rooted in the equality of openness and reduced sanctions.

If the normal balance of trade skews towards one nation due to the excessive economic demands of the other, than that is a natural imbalance due to consumption differences.

Environmental laws also cause businesses to move.
 
Environmental laws also cause businesses to move.

Exactly.

We can thank China for the formaldehyde in our flooring and drywall that is sickening Americans.

There is an alternative impact for any decision.
 
Why would our standard of living crash?

If we stopped outsourcing as many jobs, then more people in the US would have jobs, which means we would produce more wealth right here in the USA.

Now maybe that would cause a few percent inflation, but like it or not, the Federal Reserve has determined that a few percent of inflation is stimulative to our economy and they strive to achieve such. So if we had a few percent of inflation due to cost push pressure, it would simply help to achieve the Feds goal, without the fed having to intervene by pumping more money into the system - so most likely there would be no additional inflation than what would have occurred without more jobs.

In the mean time, our wages would naturally tend to rise as employers have to compete harder and harder for workers, consumption increases as more people get jobs, production increases as businesses strive to meet demand, and the GDP increases. None of that is a bad thing, it's basically what happens when we have a strong economy.

You think that a strong economy = crash?

This sounds nice and all, but the capitalist wouldn't produce as much profit, :(
 
Is driving business offshore patriotic? No, it's not.

Which POTUS gave China "most flavored nation" trade status? Hmmmm, it's on the tip of my tongue. :roll:

And just why do you think these are the type of people that we get to choose from, both Democrat and Republican.
 
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