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Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay [W:150]

Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay People?


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Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

You already didn't believe the consistency of my position in the other thread on the basis that liberals will want to pretend to appear fair. So why will you believe the results here? If we were lying in the other thread, what changed to make you trust us in this one?

some people like conspiracy theories and fallacy stereotypes
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Absolutely. Businesses, like customers, should be able to discriminate for any reason they like (exceptions being for medical related goods/services, or if they have a local monopoly and there's no viable alternative).

Yup. This-----^
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Yes, I think they should be allowed. I don't agree with it, but any business, IMO, should be allowed to deny service to anyone they wish. In the end, the business will be judged by the number of customers that patronize their store.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Yes, I think they should be allowed. I don't agree with it, but any business, IMO, should be allowed to deny service to anyone they wish. In the end, the business will be judged by the number of customers that patronize their store.

It's really better that they not be able to discriminate against customers, especially under the umbrella of religious principles. One of the primary themes guiding those who want that right relates to not "participating in the sin" of gay marriage or gay lifestyle. Gays have received the sole brunt of the focus, but if the point is to deny customers on the basis of religious principle you have to fairly take into account all the sins and religious principles one might "participate in" by entering into commerce. Along with the dubious "sin" of homosexuality (which has yet to be explained to my satisfaction) there are very real, unambiguous sins that the bible is pretty clear about yet which Christians have been mysteriously uinterested in discussing, such as gluttony, adultery, working on the sabbath, dishonoring your mother and father, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride. But wait! There's more! Be sure to memorize each of these six hundred and sixty seven sins. I'll wait.

SIN LIST

Got all that?

Giving people the right to discriminate based on their religious principles is tantamount to giving Christians, the largest demographic in this country, effective tyranny over the rest of the populace. People especially in extremely religious parts of the country would have to cower in fear of businesses turning them away because of some perceived sin. But when you consider how often you hear from those who want the right to discriminate that the United States is a "Christian Country," I'm pretty sure that no vision of the future could fill them with more delight.

It isn't just that gays have received the sole focus in this issue, which has only served to misrepresent the sheer scale of potential for abuse. We've also focused for some reason on pizza and cakes to such a degree that a visitor from a foreign country could be forgiven for thinking pizza and cake were the only businesses operating in the United States. There are also supermarkets, banks, universities, private schools, investment firms, shipping stores, storage units, taxis, pharmacies, major outlet centers, clothing stores, well, you can use your imagination. A disapproved of minority or those not practicing the right faith could find oneself completely marginalized and disenfranchised in the wrong part of the country overnight.

That is a real, tangible damage that can be observed and weighed, whereas the damage of doing business with one you consider "sinful" is intangible and more than likely exists only in the head of the business owner.
 
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Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

It's really better that they not be able to discriminate against customers, especially under the umbrella of religious principles. One of the primary themes guiding those who want that right relates to not "participating in the sin" of gay marriage. Gays have received the sole brunt of the focus, but if the point is to deny customers on the basis of religious principle you have to fairly take into account all the sins and religious principles one might "participate in" by entering into commerce. Along with the dubious "sin" of homosexuality (which has yet to be explained to my satisfaction) there are very real, unambiguous sins that the bible is pretty clear about yet which Christians have been mysteriously uinterested in discussing, such as gluttony, adultery, working on the sabbath, dishonoring your mother and father, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride. But wait! There's more! Be sure to memorize each of these six hundred and sixty seven sins. I'll wait.

SIN LIST

Got all that?

Giving people the right to discriminate based on their religious principles is tantamount to giving Christians, the largest demographic in this country, effective tyranny over the rest of the populace. People especially in extremely religious parts of the country would have to cower in fear of businesses turning them away because of some perceived sin. But when you consider how often you hear from those who want the right to discriminate that the United States is a "Christian Country," I'm pretty sure that no vision of the future could fill them with more delight.

It isn't just that gays have received the sole focus in this issue, which has only served to misrepresent the sheer scale of potential for abuse. We've also focused for some reason on pizza and cakes to such a degree that a visitor from a foreign country could be forgiven for thinking pizza and cake were the only businesses operating in the United States. There are also supermarkets, banks, universities, private schools, investment firms, shipping stores, storage units, taxis, pharmacies, major outlet centers, clothing stores, well, you can use your imagination. A disapproved of minority or those not practicing the right faith could find oneself completely marginalized and disenfranchised in the wrong part of the country overnight.

That is a real, tangible damage that can be observed and weighed, whereas the damage of doing business with one you consider "sinful" is intangible and more than likely entirely in the head of the business owner.

While I share your fears, because I am an atheist living in a country where 90 plus percent claims to be part of some type of religion, I think your thinking is stuck back in the 50's, possibly earlier. There are many in America who claim to be of a certain religion, but when you get down to it, there are very few fundamentalists / extremists in our country today. People today are relatively liberal when it comes to the acceptance of others. I don't foresee America reverting to, say, a 1950's Germany, if it were not legal to choose who you serve as a business owner. In fact, I think that doing so would reveal those who do secretly have discriminatory views, instead of keeping those views secret and getting rich off of those they secretly hate.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

While I share your fears, because I am an atheist living in a country where 90 plus percent claims to be part of some type of religion, I think your thinking is stuck back in the 50's, possibly earlier. There are many in America who claim to be of a certain religion, but when you get down to it, there are very few fundamentalists / extremists in our country today. People today are relatively liberal when it comes to the acceptance of others. I don't foresee America reverting to, say, a 1950's Germany, if it were not legal to choose who you serve as a business owner. In fact, I think that doing so would reveal those who do secretly have discriminatory views, instead of keeping those views secret and getting rich off of those they secretly hate.

I don't accept the thinking that because "not too many" people would take advantage of their freedom to discriminate based on religious principle that nobody would have anything to fear. Try to approach it mathematically (I'm not a math major so don't worry, this isn't going to fry your brain). In a mid sized town, there are 20 Pizzerias owned by Christians and three pizzerias owned by gay Muslim atheists (minorities). This is in Mississipi, so "only" thirty percents of the Christian pizzerias would discriminate against the minorities, and just to be fair, thirty percent of the minority pizzerias would discriminate against the Christians. So that means you have 6 pizzerias willing to discriminate against minorities and one pizzeria willing to discriminate against Christians. From there, the White Christians still have 22 pizzerias to choose from while the minorities have 17 to choose from. Team Christian is doing better already. But of course seventeen is still not bad (how much pizza do you really need anyway?). Replace "23 pizzerias" with "one bank," "one supermarket," "one private school," etc., and it gets a bit more grim for Team Minority.

The argument was never that every Christian store everywhere would turn away minorities en masse resulting in a dystopian Christian theocracy, but that even if only a minority of them did, Christians would have the advantage by simple virtue of being in the overwhelming majority, and the minorities would face greater barriers than a Christian. That is real, tangible damage.
 
Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

They said they wouldn't want to cater a gay wedding. they also said they wouldn't refuse service to anyone. what you are doing is speculating in contradiction to thier statement

No, the girls words indicated that they would not provide pizza for a gay wedding. She did not say the word "cater" in the first interview.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

No, the girls words indicated that they would not provide pizza for a gay wedding. She did not say the word "cater" in the first interview.


So what did she mean when she said she wouldn't refuse service to anyone?
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

I don't accept the thinking that because "not too many" people would take advantage of their freedom to discriminate based on religious principle that nobody would have anything to fear. Try to approach it mathematically (I'm not a math major so don't worry, this isn't going to fry your brain). In a mid sized town, there are 20 Pizzerias owned by Christians and three pizzerias owned by gay Muslim atheists (minorities). This is in Mississipi, so "only" thirty percents of the Christian pizzerias would discriminate against the minorities, and just to be fair, thirty percent of the minority pizzerias would discriminate against the Christians. So that means you have 6 pizzerias willing to discriminate against minorities and one pizzeria willing to discriminate against Christians. From there, the White Christians still have 22 pizzerias to choose from while the minorities have 17 to choose from. Team Christian is doing better already. But of course seventeen is still not bad (how much pizza do you really need anyway?). Replace "23 pizzerias" with "one bank," "one supermarket," "one private school," etc., and it gets a bit more grim for Team Minority.

The argument was never that every Christian store everywhere would turn away minorities en masse resulting in a dystopian Christian theocracy, but that even if only a minority of them did, Christians would have the advantage by simple virtue of being in the overwhelming majority, and the minorities would face greater barriers than a Christian. That is real, tangible damage.


I think you are over thinking this issue. In stark reality, very few businesses would discriminate even if they were given the chance. Because in the realm of importance, money lists higher then religion even for the most religious in America. The fear of loosing revenue in the vast majority of cases, keeps businesses honest. I just don't think your scenario is realistic.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Consistency would include all religions.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

I think you are over thinking this issue. In stark reality, very few businesses would discriminate even if they were given the chance. Because in the realm of importance, money lists higher then religion even for the most religious in America. The fear of loosing revenue in the vast majority of cases, keeps businesses honest. I just don't think your scenario is realistic.

What I've demonstrated is that whatever percentage of businesses actually take part in discrimination there is a tangible and measurable impact that places the minority groups at a disadvantage. There is no tangible damage to a business owner serving a minority. Unless they can demonstrate one then they're just going to have to suck it up.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

If gay people wants to refuse to put ‘hateful’ messages on something, they should have that right.
If Muslims want to refuse putting cartoons of Muhammad on a poster, they should have that right.
If black Americans want to refuse putting images of the KKK on materials, they should have the right to do that.
If Christians who disagree with gay marriage don’t want to endorse messages that support it, they should have that right.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

So what did she mean when she said she wouldn't refuse service to anyone?

That is they came in just to order pizza, for consumption there, she'd sell them the pizza. But if they specifically asked for the pizzas for a same sex wedding, she'd deny them. This implies that if she had a similar request for pizzas for an opposite sex marriage, that wouldn't be an issue.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Yes, I think they should be allowed. I don't agree with it, but any business, IMO, should be allowed to deny service to anyone they wish. In the end, the business will be judged by the number of customers that patronize their store.

Businesses thrived under your model when they were allowed to discriminate against blacks and women. I suppose we should have left well enough alone.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

That is they came in just to order pizza, for consumption there, she'd sell them the pizza. But if they specifically asked for the pizzas for a same sex wedding, she'd deny them. This implies that if she had a similar request for pizzas for an opposite sex marriage, that wouldn't be an issue.




Show me where she said an individual could come in and order 10 pizzas for his gay wedding and they would refuse it.


“If a gay couple was to come and they wanted us to bring pizzas to their wedding, we’d have to say no,” Crystal told ABC 57.

Note word bring

“We said we would serve anyone that came in that door, even gays,” Crystal told The Blaze. “But we would not condone a wedding. We would not cater to that.”

She means catering as in being there.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Businesses thrived under your model when they were allowed to discriminate against blacks and women. I suppose we should have left well enough alone.

We should, because if businesses existed today that did that, they would last only as long as the owner can run it while losing money.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

What I've demonstrated is that whatever percentage of businesses actually take part in discrimination there is a tangible and measurable impact that places the minority groups at a disadvantage. There is no tangible damage to a business owner serving a minority. Unless they can demonstrate one then they're just going to have to suck it up.

Far from the truth. In fact, people love a good human interest story. And they flock to businesses who have good images.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

Show me where she said an individual could come in and order 10 pizzas for his gay wedding and they would refuse it.


“If a gay couple was to come and they wanted us to bring pizzas to their wedding, we’d have to say no,” Crystal told ABC 57.

Note word bring

“We said we would serve anyone that came in that door, even gays,” Crystal told The Blaze. “But we would not condone a wedding. We would not cater to that.”

She means catering as in being there.

That is not what she said in that very first interview. She said come in and ask us to provide pizzas for a gay wedding.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

if you don't want to do business with all americans move out the country....simple...but they would have to come to you...you don't have to go to them....I don't feel that any business has to physically go work at a place they don't want to work at...a bad neighborhood....a kkk meeting if you have a black catering business and they want some good soul food....a religious catering service go do a gay wedding .get my meaning
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs....

....Commissioners at one of the country's biggest airports are considering punishing Muslim cab drivers who refuse service to passengers possessing alcohol or guide dogs.

The cabbies claim transporting those items violates Islamic law.

"It is against our faith and the airport is discriminating against Muslim drivers," says a cab driver who would only give his first name, Hashim.

Three-quarters of the 900 cabbies licensed to operate at the airport are Muslim, most from Somalia. It is unclear how many are adhering to this letter of Islamic law which considers the purchase, drinking and transport of alcoholic beverages a sin.

Islam also regards the saliva from dogs to be unclean.....

Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs - ABC News

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archives/21410-muslim-americans-making-their-own-rules.html

:coffeepap
 
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Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Far from the truth. In fact, people love a good human interest story. And they flock to businesses who have good images.

I'm afraid they'll have to get by on providing a superior product or service. The time of lgbts getting full protected class status isn't too far away, and Christians will have to give up their pipe dream of discriminating against people who don't follow their faith.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

While I share your fears, because I am an atheist living in a country where 90 plus percent claims to be part of some type of religion, I think your thinking is stuck back in the 50's, possibly earlier. There are many in America who claim to be of a certain religion, but when you get down to it, there are very few fundamentalists / extremists in our country today. People today are relatively liberal when it comes to the acceptance of others. I don't foresee America reverting to, say, a 1950's Germany, if it were not legal to choose who you serve as a business owner. In fact, I think that doing so would reveal those who do secretly have discriminatory views, instead of keeping those views secret and getting rich off of those they secretly hate.

Jim crow south had to be forced into allowing blacks in their restaurants. Laws like "RFRA" give a stamp of approval if not legitimacy to such discrimination, towards lgbt specifically. That can easily reverse any progress that's been made. It's easy to minimize this kind of government endorsed hatred, when you aren't the minority in question

And no, people in indiana are not social liberals, at all. There's reason that law got passed
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

Jim crow south had to be forced into allowing blacks in their restaurants. Laws like "RFRA" give a stamp of approval if not legitimacy to such discrimination, towards lgbt specifically. That can easily reverse any progress that's been made. It's easy to minimize this kind of government endorsed hatred, when you aren't the minority in question

And no, people in indiana are not social liberals, at all. There's reason that law got passed

It isn't hatred to say no to a wedding cake. Just because people want to force there wills on businesses to make them participate in something they believe is morally wrong is in fact infringing on there first amendment rights. The first freedom mentioned. No ones trying to deny food at diners to gay people or make them sit on the back of the bus, or have gay and straight water fountains. This is about government forcing religious people to do something against there faith and destroying there businesses and livelihoods if they don't. Yay socialism! I mean it worked for the nazis right?

https://youtu.be/l1_gqbQcI60

And no gay people are not nazis, but big government forcing people to do something against there convictions most absolutely is.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay ...

That is not what she said in that very first interview. She said come in and ask us to provide pizzas for a gay wedding.



i'm only quoting what she said.
 
Re: Should a Muslim Owned Business Be Legally Permitted to Refuse Service to Gay Peop

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