View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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  • Yes

    77 47.53%
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    63 38.89%
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    11 6.79%
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    11 6.79%
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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

  1. #881
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you desperately attempted to leap onto a strawman argument, it was thrown back in your face. Complaining "nuh-UH" now isn't really much of a response.
    There was no strawman actually?

    this isn't actually all that complicated. People try to make it so (it's good copy, and it makes for endless topics for research papers in our Humanities Glut), but with a very, very few examples of those who are biologically ambiguous, gender is pretty straightforward.
    That is not a scientifically minded claim. A phenomena not being noticed by many has nothing to do with its existence or not.

    Yes, and your response was foolish given that A) no one was talking about submission as a particular gender role any more than they were talking about wearing heels and B) in fact the most common gender role for females is not submission (which is actually a minority position in the US), but rather the birthing and primary care-giving for infants. Men have gender roles, as well, the most basic of which are ultimately (as with women) built off of their biology.
    If you bring up a vague topic like gender roles and don't specify any, it's completely logical for the opponent to refer to the most commonly cited instance. Stop being ridiculous. Only recently is that gender role not enforced extremely prominently. Birthing is not a gender role.

    Single Example: The introduction of the plow into farming required additional upper-body strength for farmers, increased agricultural output, and disadvantaged attempts to farm while taking care of small children. The result was that the gender with greater upper body strength which was less necessary to the constant care of infants and small children became expected to spend all day behind the plow in order to increase agricultural output, while the gender that was most necessary to the constant care of infants and small children became expected to remain in the home where they could focus greater attention, time, and resources on raising children; each gender working together to enable successful reproduction through specialization within gender roles on the basis of their respective biological advantages and disadvantages.
    Broken clock

    No, I am pointing out that you attempting to shift to a discussion of submission is a strawman argument.
    It would've been a strawman had you initially given a solid example. You didn't, and thus I assumed the default, logically.

  2. #882
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. Really. You don't see any logical connection between the ability to have children and then provide their food source and the assigned role that you are better suited to actually do so. You really claim not to see a gender role in war.
    What says that the gender in question is better suited? War does deal in gender roles. I am not refuting the existence of gender roles.

    2. Saying something "doesn't logically follow" isn't actually an effective counter-argument - you have to be able to demonstrate your reasoning, and preferably, back it with data, as I have done for you.
    If you say that potatoes are humans I'm not inclined to logically dissect your claim, sorry. I deal in the real world.

    Are you currently in college?
    Are you currently indulging in the logical fallacy you've presented in the form of an implicit question?



    I managed to pass middle school science. But if you need to review, then that's okay A book, if you like.
    Disingenuous. Sex and gender are used interchangeably in regards to non-human animals. Many are pushing for this to not be so so that you won't get confused about the niche arguments relating to sex and gender.

    Funny, then, how you haven't actually cited any. Biological Limits of Gender Construction and Gender and Parenthood from a 30 second google search. Feel free to add it to the previously cited study on the sharpening of gender roles based off of biological advantage in agricultural societies.
    My position is quite logically the default. If you claim otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

    Really. There is no evidence to support the claim that women's ability to produce milk for the feeding of small infants is a biological, rather than a socialized, development?

    Those are facts and also not gender roles. Women feeding babies with their breasts is not a gender role.

    Ah. And now we get rather to the heart of it. You want to affirm people, and that is behind your arguments, not the science. As a result, when people point out to you the deep problems in that position, you are reduced to accusing them of opposing your motivations rather than your conclusions.
    I have two agendas, based in two strongly held values:

    1. Finding and promoting the truth (or as close as we can get to it) in spite of dogma, preconceived notions, and traditionalist views
    2. Allowing the highest amount of people possible to get the absolute most out of their lives, since I myself am so well off

    If affirming someone coincides with those, I see no issue here. I wouldn't affirm someone if one of those two agendas were not to be enforced. Just like I'm not affirming you right now - because doing so would be effectively lying and effectively contributing to oppression and hurt.

  3. #883
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Huh. So, there are no public facilities, or publicly available facilities in publicly-owed buildings?


    regardless, it's only a matter of time before dudes with their tallywackers cut off, or false breasts, or wearing a dress, start suing private establishments for not letting them access the women's facilities. It will become legal fairly quickly at that point - and I guarantee that at that point both you and roguenuke who liked this post will be arguing that yes, in fact, it is a legal matter and should not be left up to the individual business policy.
    Eh you're probably right, but personally, I'd only support that for men/women who are actually biologically transgender in some way, not just people who don't identify with their gender. Bathrooms divide different sexes, not genders, and aren't a question of personal preference.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Dressing rooms, bathrooms, etc. aren't really a legal matter as much as the policy of a business though.
    I never mentioned law...

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sionnach Cliste View Post
    In America, you call it the land of the free, the land to make choices to the benefit of everyone and personal liberties are seen as being a cornerstone of your society. This also emboides letting trans men and women make their decision to be what gender they want to be. Gender is arguably a social construct. We box ourselvs into a pre defined role on the basis of us either having a penis or a vagina and then subscribe to a pre defined set of attributes. People are uncomfortable with the idea of trans people as it upsets whatever sort of 'norms' that they have. If we take it that a lot of conservatives in America want loose gun control (guns can kill people) vis a vis trans rights then that is a good basis for proving what sort of value system conservative America has....
    Gender is irrelevant to male and female... factual biology. Nobody argues that gay men should be allowed into female locker rooms.

    But if I felt like doing so and went with the ridiculous idea of a conscience clause I could discriminate? So essentially what you are saying is that we can dish out maltretment as we do not have to hold people in parity of esteem? We can see others as inequals?
    "Discrimination"... oh, here we go.

    That is the beauty of the free world, letting people lead their lives as they see fit and disagreeing with them but it also involves extending the same protection to them
    What "protection" are trans-people being denied?

  6. #886
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    Actually we have an evidence base
    And yet you fail to produce it...

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sionnach Cliste View Post
    That is where we differ. America holds everyone to be free but only in certain circumstances?
    Actually you are the one trying to limit people's freedoms. By limiting how people can act towards each other you are limiting them... they should be free to be rude and I am free to ignore them.

  8. #888
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    You're confusing correlation with causation. If you don't agree with me that black people should not be enslaved, you're not rigid because you disagree with me; you're rigid because you're rigid, and vise versa.
    Not really, that is just you using a subjective argument to attempt to back your claim and to dodge being a Politically Correct Super Person. We are all rigid in some ways and flexible in others. Kinda a feeble argument.

    Key words: "relating to"
    Which are subjective
    A female that can lay eggs or produce young and is a girl or woman is not subjective.

    Let me help you out on this one:

    subjective
    adjective sub·jec·tive \(ˌ)səb-ˈjek-tiv\
    philosophy : relating to the way a person experiences things in his or her own mind
    : based on feelings or opinions rather than facts


    Subjective | Definition of subjective by Merriam-Webster

    We actually both are fully accepting the facts. The difference is interpretation - one of us is interpreting it in a way that solidifies our preconceived notions of sex and gender while actively hurting people in doing so, and the other is allowing their preconceived notions to be challenged in the absence of evidence outside of biology.
    How am I hurting trans people. Be specific now... you are sure happy to toss out the insults and I would like to see if you have the brains or balls to actually back up your stupid assertion.

    I'm not much of a sports fan, so I wouldn't know.
    It doesn't take beign a sports fan to figure this one out. Why do we not see little 5'2" 90 pound men taking on 6'8" (?) 250 lbs The Rock in wrestling?

    ...and you can't have case by case cases because that is not fair to trans-women. You argue that some should be allowed in but not all. What if some can fight fairly (Weakly) with some women but some are so tough they could destroy all women just like some men dominate all men (LeBron James, for instance). How is that fair to the dominate trans-woman? It isn't. Besides, that isn't the point as I have shown above.

    I have daughters and one plays field hockey... it pisses me off because this stupid league allows boys to play this year because not enough boys could ge ta league together. Many of these boys run circles around the girls, including mine, for various reasons and the main one is speed and the other is agressiveness (running into people). I had this stupid mom from my team say that it is fine and the girls can compete with the boys. Obviously they can't, as the only all girl team they are getting smashed every week and are in dead last place. Just because there are a couple of girls in the league better than the boys, as this mom pointed out, does not mean that it is fair, as you would undoubtedly argue as well. It is a stupid politically correct, we can all get along and are the same, type of argument.

    You're allowed to hurt trans people who already live dreadful lives (mainly because of mentalities like yours), yet when I call you out on that, you're the victim - not only the victim but the victim of a made up "PC" phenomenon.
    I am not a victim and never indicated that I am either... vicitmhood is a mentality. The fact that you are rude does not make me a victim... it just makes you rude. I made the case for PC and you want to ignore it... as most PC people do, incidentally.

    What problem? The problem of not being able to be an ass without social consequence? Because that's always been true essentially. You people don't want a lack of censorship; you want a lack of responsibility.
    I am making an argument about biological fact regarding the persons SEX. "You people"...

    I don't give a flying **** what a person percieves themselves to be. Good for them. Great for society. Let's all hold hands, me included with those that identify how they feel themselves to be. I don't care either way. The guy is still a guy and should not be in the woman's dressing room. That is not harming anybody. If anything, you should be arguing for a third dressing room, a gender neutral one and let people make up their own minds but calling women that don't want a man in their dressing rooms bigots, or people hurting trans-people negative names (which is political correctness CRAP), YOU ARE THE ONE INFRINGING ON OTHERS, hurting them, being oppressive and all in order to impose on society your subjective view of what you think is right.

    I truly feel sorry for sophists who have to deal with slightly changing definitions that are trying to accommodate the feelings of feeling-oriented individuals known as "people." I'm so sorry you have to deal with this problem.
    Here we go again... feeling oriented individuals are people and you have classified me as sub-human because I differ from your mindset. Retarded.

  9. #889
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Actually you are the one trying to limit people's freedoms. By limiting how people can act towards each other you are limiting them... they should be free to be rude and I am free to ignore them.
    Would that include repealing laws on racial discrimination?

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sionnach Cliste View Post
    Would that include repealing laws on racial discrimination?
    Straw Man... sorry, not even logically connected. Discrimination is illegal and it should be. Being rude to people is not discrimination and being rude should be legal.

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