View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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    77 47.53%
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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

  1. #851
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    You seem to have no grasp on what a gender role even is,

    The actual fact is that there is no clear, objective evidence as to how gender roles initially started, nor how they were perpetuated for so long. What we do know, however, is that they are not necessary or apt, as you said. The logical conclusion therefore is that gender roles are not based in biology, because they are not necessary and not apt. If they were based in biology, they would be apt. Perhaps they could be ill-perceived to be based in biology, but I don't use falsehoods as arguments, ironically said to the side so against non-existent falsehoods. Anything otherwise would not follow.
    That is some funny and seriously contradicting garbage there... "You don't know what gender is but nobody does so I am right"!!

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    I don't really see the need for a legal differentiation of men and women in the first place. Maintaining one strengthens traditional gender roles and complicates the whole transgender issue even further.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    But I think earning the respect of them will be too daunting. I rather have the government declare me part of Apache Nation. Im an Indian too. Im an honest injun' Indian.

    If you can get a therapist to say that you should be Apache because of whatever evidence and you can live as Apache, and this would help you over your "identity" issues, I personally have no issue with it, considering I personally believe that there shouldn't be any differences between people of different races/nationalities.

    However, you shouldn't be "entitled" to anything because of your identity issues. There is no actual mental need (except possibly your own personal greed) for you to get some governmental benefit for believing yourself to be Apache. Plus, while our government might view you as Apache, there is no way to force the Apache government to view you as such, so that means that you are not entitled to anything they give their people. Just as our government might view a Native American as the opposite gender as their birth but that doesn't mean that any NA government must also do so.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    Generalizations, stereotypes, and factually incorrect beliefs are not gender roles, nor are they close. It is a completely failed analogy. You used the word "perpetuated" though, so it must be the same!
    you desperately attempted to leap onto a strawman argument, it was thrown back in your face. Complaining "nuh-UH" now isn't really much of a response.

    We were talking about gender roles. You gave a speech and half about a concept you didn't even understand.
    this isn't actually all that complicated. People try to make it so (it's good copy, and it makes for endless topics for research papers in our Humanities Glut), but with a very, very few examples of those who are biologically ambiguous, gender is pretty straightforward.

    My refutation was that your posts had nothing to do with gender roles, and I cited the most commonly perpetuated, commonly reported aspect of the female gender role.
    Yes, and your response was foolish given that A) no one was talking about submission as a particular gender role any more than they were talking about wearing heels and B) in fact the most common gender role for females is not submission (which is actually a minority position in the US), but rather the birthing and primary care-giving for infants. Men have gender roles, as well, the most basic of which are ultimately (as with women) built off of their biology.

    Single Example: The introduction of the plow into farming required additional upper-body strength for farmers, increased agricultural output, and disadvantaged attempts to farm while taking care of small children. The result was that the gender with greater upper body strength which was less necessary to the constant care of infants and small children became expected to spend all day behind the plow in order to increase agricultural output, while the gender that was most necessary to the constant care of infants and small children became expected to remain in the home where they could focus greater attention, time, and resources on raising children; each gender working together to enable successful reproduction through specialization within gender roles on the basis of their respective biological advantages and disadvantages.

    You're feigning that my argument doesn't follow because you know it does and completely dismantles what you were saying about gender roles.
    No, I am pointing out that you attempting to shift to a discussion of submission is a strawman argument.

    That seems to logically follow. I said something slightly sexist because it's ingrained in my vocabulary, though I'm not excusing it. Congrats on being correct one time.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom
    You have laid out the most basic of gender roles, namely..... something's effect on gender roles? Logic follow doesn't.... Your example didn't logically follow
    1. Really. You don't see any logical connection between the ability to have children and then provide their food source and the assigned role that you are better suited to actually do so. You really claim not to see a gender role in war.

    2. Saying something "doesn't logically follow" isn't actually an effective counter-argument - you have to be able to demonstrate your reasoning, and preferably, back it with data, as I have done for you.

    Are you currently in college?

    There is no evidence I'm aware of to conclude that any species other than us has a sense of gender. How you came to the conclusion that they not only have gender but are subject to gender roles is beyond me.
    I managed to pass middle school science. But if you need to review, then that's okay A book, if you like.

    Actually there is if you read pretty much any study on gender.
    Funny, then, how you haven't actually cited any. Biological Limits of Gender Construction and Gender and Parenthood from a 30 second google search. Feel free to add it to the previously cited study on the sharpening of gender roles based off of biological advantage in agricultural societies.

    There is no evidence to support that these aren't largely the result of gender roles and socialization (besides testosterone).
    Really. There is no evidence to support the claim that women's ability to produce milk for the feeding of small infants is a biological, rather than a socialized, development?



    Even so, I am not saying that there are not different physical and sometimes mental traits between the two conventionally perceived sexes. I don't know what you're trying to argue besides "Call everyone a female who has a vagina because I don't care about people and think solidly rooted definitions can't be inaccurate and change, and that this perception matters more than people.
    Ah. And now we get rather to the heart of it. You want to affirm people, and that is behind your arguments, not the science. As a result, when people point out to you the deep problems in that position, you are reduced to accusing them of opposing your motivations rather than your conclusions.

    Recommended Reading

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    Or, hey, you're part of the Youtube Generation.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I don't really see the need for a legal differentiation of men and women in the first place. Maintaining one strengthens traditional gender roles and complicates the whole transgender issue even further.
    So biological facts and common sense definitions of a man and a woman need to be tossed out to appease the feelings and confusion of an extremely small minority?

    That is very illogical as well as impractical.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    So biological facts and common sense definitions of a man and a woman need to be tossed out to appease the feelings and confusion of an extremely small minority?

    That is very illogical as well as impractical.
    There is a difference between recognition of sex and recognition of gender; it is definitely not a clear-cut common sense defining line. Not that a reform like this is very high for me at all on a list of priorities in the first place, but I would rather abolish gender roles in a legal sense than incorporate every possible gender identity into one of two boxes.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    There is a difference between recognition of sex and recognition of gender; it is definitely not a clear-cut common sense defining line. Not that a reform like this is very high for me at all on a list of priorities in the first place, but I would rather abolish gender roles in a legal sense than incorporate every possible gender identity into one of two boxes.
    Fair enough and pretty much my view as well... for the point of this debate though I maintain that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, biologically. Regarding "gender identity" people should be free to identify however they like. I still argue that a man that is obviously a man should not be allowed into female dressing rooms just because they feel that way though...

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Fair enough and pretty much my view as well... for the point of this debate though I maintain that a man is a man and a woman is a woman, biologically. Regarding "gender identity" people should be free to identify however they like. I still argue that a man that is obviously a man should not be allowed into female dressing rooms just because they feel that way though...
    Dressing rooms, bathrooms, etc. aren't really a legal matter as much as the policy of a business though.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I don't really see the need for a legal differentiation of men and women in the first place. Maintaining one strengthens traditional gender roles and complicates the whole transgender issue even further.
    Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]-bruce-jenners-cat-jpg

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