View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Have an Apache adopt you.
    But I think earning the respect of them will be too daunting. I rather have the government declare me part of Apache Nation. Im an Indian too. Im an honest injun' Indian.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Nobody said anything about submission until you brought it up.
    It's a very commonly perpetuated gender role. Either you're extremely out of touch and live in a forest or, my prediction, you're being disingenuous - surprise!

    look, you can pick at specifics if you like, the fact remains that gender roles are built on biological realities, however they get built. In no society have men stayed home with infants while women went off to war - for basic, biological reasons. Women lactate, men are stronger. You can argue that some gender roles that have been created are no longer necessary or apt, and I'll agree with you. But the blanket statement that there are no connections is on it's face ridiculous - ideology trying to trump physical reality. The idea that pregnancy has nothing to do with gender roles is laughable.
    You seem to have no grasp on what a gender role even is, and you've not once presented an argument - not even a supposition (your guys' favorite!) that logically follows - to back up your claim of facts. "Women lactate, men are stronger." Which gender roles do these apply to? Are weak, skinny guys submissive? Are they pushed under the gender roles of women because men are stronger than them?

    The actual fact is that there is no clear, objective evidence as to how gender roles initially started, nor how they were perpetuated for so long. What we do know, however, is that they are not necessary or apt, as you said. The logical conclusion therefore is that gender roles are not based in biology, because they are not necessary and not apt. If they were based in biology, they would be apt. Perhaps they could be ill-perceived to be based in biology, but I don't use falsehoods as arguments, ironically said to the side so against non-existent falsehoods. Anything otherwise would not follow.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    No, "she" is a man. He does not have a uterus, a real vagina, a clit, etc. Man.
    You are using conventional, simplified standards that are only perceived to be correct because they apply to a large percent of the population to classify a minority who wasn't considered when these classifications and sets of nomenclature were brought up. Someone who has a uterus, has a uterus. They likely have a vagina too. It is your prerogative and failure to adapt with definitions, as they always do. Female is subjective. Feminine is subjective. For so long, they have been treated as objective, as so their names have been bled to an actual objective science like Biology. This was done in a time of incomplete understanding of pretty much everything in the world - which was largely ignorant of trans peoples' existence and especially the science behind them. You adapt and die or you don't adapt and die. Either way, society will move on without you. You can be known as the rigid grump or the empathetic gentleman who was on the right side of history.

    No. A man should not take place in woman's sports and vice versa. Any athlete will tell you this. I was a very good athlete.
    I'd say a 250lb 6ft tall man shouldn't be facing a 100lb 5ft fall man in sports, regardless of gender.

    I have an educated hypothesis with a knowledge base to support it as well... so there goes your theory.
    What knowledge base do you have that's beyond philosophical supposition attempted to justify being cruel to people?


    PC is an attack method designed to quite an opponent by putting them on the defensive... here, look how easy it works:

    Your arguments here are sexist. You are a sexist.
    PC is a myth perpetuated by rigid, mean people who think that the natural consequences of going against the grain of society, and more importantly progress, should be met with neutrality or acceptance. They are what they claim to hate. "Accept what I say, don't give me natural consequences of being an ass, and allow me to dismantle your society while you watch in silence."

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    It's a very commonly perpetuated gender role.
    and? I'm not insisting that you defend marching in parades wearing a piece of string wrapped around your ding-a-ling, despite that being a commonly perpetuated image of the LGBT community.

    Respond to what people actually write, or they will call you out on it. No one said anything about submission until you brought it up.

    You seem to have no grasp on what a gender role even is, and you've not once presented an argument - not even a supposition (your guys' favorite!)
    Firstly, the phrase "you guys" is sexist.

    Secondly, I have only laid out the most basic of the gender roles, namely, sexual dimorphism's effect on gender roles as it relates to the care of infants and the use of institutionalized violence.

    that logically follows - to back up your claim of facts. "Women lactate, men are stronger." Which gender roles do these apply to?
    Well, if you will note, I gave you the examples in the immediately preceding sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    In no society have men stayed home with infants while women went off to war


    Are weak, skinny guys submissive? Are they pushed under the gender roles of women because men are stronger than them?
    I don't know what your obsession with submission is, but there is a forum for discussing sexual fantasies, and this isn't it. If you get off by having a female or skinny male sub, that's your thing, and while you're free to bring it up there, no one else is talking about it here.

    The actual fact is that there is no clear, objective evidence as to how gender roles initially started, nor how they were perpetuated for so long.
    Sure there is. Look at just about every other species on the planet. Gender roles evolve and are maintained because they are advantageous for those who use them and built on biological reality.

    What we do know, however, is that they are not necessary or apt, as you said. The logical conclusion therefore is that gender roles are not based in biology, because they are not necessary and not apt.


    There is zero evidence in favor of this make-believe conclusion and it flies in the face of everything else that we know about biology, and quite a lot that we've learned in sociology.

    But it's okay, I get it. Ideology Uber Alles.

    If they were based in biology, they would be apt.
    Ah. So you mean that we would see things like women's brains reacting differently to the sounds of infants crying and the ability of the adult human female (known as a woman) to produce milk for the feeding of small infants, a trait that would not be present in males? We would see things like men having 7 to 8 as much times Testosterone as women?

    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Much of the right's argument:

    [Insert fallacious analogy here where I compare wanting to be something/someone else - a condition that isn't widespread, with common threads running through it, years of science researching the phenomenon, decades of attempts to understand what it is, decades of attempts to treat the condition mentally, decades of failing to treat the condition mentally, books of evidence showing it's not a delusion and is also a real thing, etc.)

    Or more accurately portrayed: DIS GUY WANT BE LIZERD. HE IS TRANSLIZERD L.o.L. THAT'S Y TRANSGRENDRER IS DUM

    And then they'll use one loon putting on black face and being dishonest (or mentally ill) as some kind of proof too, I'll bet.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    Much of the right's argument:

    [Insert fallacious analogy here where I compare wanting to be something/someone else - a condition that isn't widespread, with common threads running through it, years of science researching the phenomenon, decades of attempts to understand what it is, decades of attempts to treat the condition mentally, decades of failing to treat the condition mentally, books of evidence showing it's not a delusion and is also a real thing, etc.)

    Or more accurately portrayed: DIS GUY WANT BE LIZERD. HE IS TRANSLIZERD L.o.L. THAT'S Y TRANSGRENDRER IS DUM

    And then they'll use one loon putting on black face and being dishonest (or mentally ill) as some kind of proof too, I'll bet.
    I want to be an Indian/Native American.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and? I'm not insisting that you defend marching in parades wearing a piece of string wrapped around your ding-a-ling, despite that being a commonly perpetuated image of the LGBT community.
    Generalizations, stereotypes, and factually incorrect beliefs are not gender roles, nor are they close. It is a completely failed analogy. You used the word "perpetuated" though, so it must be the same! You tried.

    Respond to what people actually write, or they will call you out on it. No one said anything about submission until you brought it up.
    We were talking about gender roles. You gave a speech and half about a concept you didn't even understand. My refutation was that your posts had nothing to do with gender roles, and I cited the most commonly perpetuated, commonly reported aspect of the female gender role. You're feigning that my argument doesn't follow because you know it does and completely dismantles what you were saying about gender roles.

    Firstly, the phrase "you guys" is sexist.
    That seems to logically follow. I said something slightly sexist because it's ingrained in my vocabulary, though I'm not excusing it. Congrats on being correct one time.

    Secondly, I have only laid out the most basic of the gender roles, namely, sexual dimorphism's effect on gender roles as it relates to the care of infants and the use of institutionalized violence.
    You have laid out the most basic of gender roles, namely..... something's effect on gender roles? Logic follow doesn't.

    Well, if you will note, I gave you the examples in the immediately preceding sentence.
    Your example didn't logically follow.

    Sure there is. Look at just about every other species on the planet. Gender roles evolve and are maintained because they are advantageous for those who use them and built on biological reality.
    There is no evidence I'm aware of to conclude that any species other than us has a sense of gender. How you came to the conclusion that they not only have gender but are subject to gender roles is beyond me.

    There is zero evidence in favor of this make-believe conclusion and it flies in the face of everything else that we know about biology, and quite a lot that we've learned in sociology.
    Actually there is if you read pretty much any study on gender.

    Ah. So you mean that we would see things like women's brains reacting differently to the sounds of infants crying and the ability of the adult human female (known as a woman) to produce milk for the feeding of small infants, a trait that would not be present in males? We would see things like men having 7 to 8 as much times Testosterone as women?
    There is no evidence to support that these aren't largely the result of gender roles and socialization (besides testosterone). Even so, I am not saying that there are not different physical and sometimes mental traits between the two conventionally perceived sexes. I don't know what you're trying to argue besides "Call everyone a female who has a vagina because I don't care about people and think solidly rooted definitions can't be inaccurate and change, and that this perception matters more than people.

    ~g2g for now

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    I want to be an Indian/Native American.
    see that's y transchicktendersism is dum

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Well, what do you think?
    In most areas of life, yes. Largely because gender should not matter. The one example of an exception that comes to mind is sports. Like Fallon Fox. I don't think she should be allowed to fight women. Or is Lebron were to undergo the transformation, I dont think he should be allowed to play in the WNBA.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    You are using conventional, simplified standards that are only perceived to be correct because they apply to a large percent of the population to classify a minority who wasn't considered when these classifications and sets of nomenclature were brought up. Someone who has a uterus, has a uterus. They likely have a vagina too. It is your prerogative and failure to adapt with definitions, as they always do. Female is subjective. Feminine is subjective. For so long, they have been treated as objective, as so their names have been bled to an actual objective science like Biology. This was done in a time of incomplete understanding of pretty much everything in the world - which was largely ignorant of trans peoples' existence and especially the science behind them. You adapt and die or you don't adapt and die. Either way, society will move on without you. You can be known as the rigid grump or the empathetic gentleman who was on the right side of history.
    Don't be a melodramatic and Politically Correct doofus.

    If I don't agree with your opinion I am a rigid grump. Negative.
    If I do agree with your opinion then I am an empathetic gentleman. Positive.

    See how easy it is to identify Political Correctness now?

    Conventional simplified standards are all that is required to understand the biology of male/female.

    female
    : of or relating to the sex that can produce young or lay eggs
    : characteristic of girls or women
    : having members who are all girls or women


    Female | Definition of female by Merriam-Webster

    sex
    : the state of being male or female
    : men or male animals as a group or women or female animals as a group
    : physical activity in which people touch each other's bodies, kiss each other, etc. : physical activity that is related to and often includes sexual intercourse


    Sex | Definition of sex by Merriam-Webster

    Accepting the facts does not make me unempathetic. It simply makes me honest. Actually, I would argue that I am extremely empathetic to their feelings. Some people do not like things about themselves but being untruthful about it does not equate being empathetic by any stretch of the imagination. I do not talk this way to people and if you think that debating an issue at a debate site is like talking to people on the street then you have problems. We are debating an issue and the issue is not "being empathetic" but rather "is a man that thinks he is a woman actually a woman or a man". Stay on point...

    I'd say a 250lb 6ft tall man shouldn't be facing a 100lb 5ft fall man in sports, regardless of gender.
    When does that happen? Right, it doesn't.

    What knowledge base do you have that's beyond philosophical supposition attempted to justify being cruel to people?
    I am not attempting to be cruel to people and this is just more evidence of Political Correctness confusing the minds of the intellectual meek... that said, I countered your point logically and you just shot yourself in the foot unless you can share the knowledge base you have that's beyond philosophical supposition in your attempt to be rude to those that disagree with you.

    That is the real comedy... you feel free to insult people calling them names when they simply disagree with you confirming that you are really the unempathetic and rude person, not me.

    PC is a myth perpetuated by rigid, mean people who think that the natural consequences of going against the grain of society, and more importantly progress, should be met with neutrality or acceptance. They are what they claim to hate. "Accept what I say, don't give me natural consequences of being an ass, and allow me to dismantle your society while you watch in silence."
    That is complete and utter crap and if you don't know it you are a part of the problem.

    Retarded became Politically Incorrect and was replaced by Mentally Handicapped only to be replaced with Mentally Challenged only to be replaced with Special, or whatever it is now and why? Because people started referring negatively to people they didn't like as Retarded... when the new PC Term came into effect the same jerks started using the new term and that cycle will never end. Well, retarded means what it always meant and referring to a slow person as retarded, although accurate, has now become "cruel" and meets claims like yours, "I just want to be an asshole but you guys keep changing the terms and wont let me so I will attack you by making up a term: Political Correctness."

    retarded
    adjective, re·tard·ed \ri-ˈtär-dəd\
    Definition of RETARDED
    : slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress


    Retarded | Definition of retarded by Merriam-Webster
    Last edited by Bodhisattva; 06-17-15 at 07:01 PM.

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