View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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  • Yes

    77 47.53%
  • No

    63 38.89%
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    11 6.79%
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    11 6.79%
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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

  1. #751
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    Chris, what if the transwoman only had an orchiectomy (removal of testes)? Many cannot afford full SRS.

    This is not directed at Chris: The poll question is interesting. First, it does not say what legal rights we are talking about. There is not one gender marker lever which instantly makes you treated as a female for all purposes.

    Second, why do we only focus on transwomen? Have you seen transguys? Transmen get ruddy skin, can grow beards and may get male pattern baldness. They can develop strong muscles while taking T. Very few of them get bottom surgery because the alternatives are not very satisfactory. However, very few of them are mistaken as cis-women. Almost without exception, after months not years of T, they look and sound like short guys. I have several as friends and they are guys.

    Must they go to the women's bathrooms? If not, why not?

    See, e.g., Mason Davis formerly of the Transgender Law Center:

    http://transgenderlawcenter.org/wp-c...85-620x413.jpg

    You really want him with the women?

    Third, it's sad so many cis-gender people reduce the entire panoply of transgender experiences down to the simple act of going to the bathroom. It is said that we are reduced to the primal need to pee.

    What do people think happens in a women's bathroom? I keep my head down, go to the stall and quickly wash my hands, okay, I will also check myself in the mirror for makeup and clothing being awry, and then I go ASAP. I live in Oklahoma and know full well that a mother with her cubs could take a bite out of me, call the cops and living here, who knows what might happen? I will often dehydrate myself if I'm driving any distance so as not to be caught needing to go to the bathroom in a rural area. The transgender counselor at the training I spoke at yesterday said it is very common for trans kids to simply not go to the bathroom all day long. They dehydrate in the morning, rush home to pee, and then hydrate at home.

    We can't get past this issue. /sigh
    Cis-gender? Transgender? Bi-gender? etc... how about male and female?

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Cis-gender? Transgender? Bi-gender? etc... how about male and female?
    I do not think I said bi-gender. What about male and female?

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    I do not think I said bi-gender. What about male and female?
    There are so many "genders" in today's politically correct psychology when really there are only two... male and female.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    There are so many "genders" in today's politically correct psychology when really there are only two... male and female.
    Okay.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    Chris, I don't know because I've never wanted to date a guy. Very sincerely, I suggest counseling.

    I now see the source of your strong feelings. You are confusing your own feelings of sexual desire with my feelings of identity.

    My suggestion about counseling is not made flippantly.

    I wish you well.

    Allie
    Not to be an ass but.. you are guy who has a chemical imbalance as all transgenders. A Swedish study a few years back showed the post-op transgenders had more issues (mentally) then transgenders with no operation. Fact is Post Op transgenders still had the same issues as they did before pre-op. That the surgery didn't actually fix the mental side of the "problem".

    So you can huff and puff all you want about people's opinion on the issue but can you defend a taxpayer paying for this surgery despite the high mortality rates and psychiatric morbidity in post-op transgenders? The underlying issue is still there despite the surgery.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Not to be an ass but.. you are guy who has a chemical imbalance as all transgenders. A Swedish study a few years back showed the post-op transgenders had more issues (mentally) then transgenders with no operation. Fact is Post Op transgenders still had the same issues as they did before pre-op. That the surgery didn't actually fix the mental side of the "problem".

    So you can huff and puff all you want about people's opinion on the issue but can you defend a taxpayer paying for this surgery despite the high mortality rates and psychiatric morbidity in post-op transgenders? The underlying issue is still there despite the surgery.
    What? No it didnt. That study never compared post op trans people to pre op trans people. It compared post op trans people to non trans people. Their conclusion was that even post op trans people have higher mortality rates then non trans people and stated that there should be continued psychiatric care after SRS. They never attempted to find out why and never claim SRS isnt effective in treating gender dysphoria and in fact the conclusion clearly states that SRS is effective in treating gender dysphoria which is the entire point of SRS to begin with.

    You certainly werent the first on this site that tried to use this study to support some anti trans position and im sure you wont be the last.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    There are so many "genders" in today's politically correct psychology when really there are only two... male and female.
    Eh, while I tend to agree that any deviation from male/female guy/girl is nonsensical, I think that the side presenting gender as a separate, though extremely frequently tied, entity to birth sex has more evidence to their claim which is that gender can be separate, and that gender is more of a feeling than it is a currently known gene-identified aspect of biology. I understand the appeal of simplicity and consistency, but what's appealing is not always right or true. The burden of proof really lies on those who are saying that, essentially, because transgender people make up a minority of the population, we cannot therefore learn anything useful about gender through them. It lies on those who claim that gender identity doesn't exist, because there has been evidence presented that it does exist - at least in a good portion of people.

    And all of the posts here using the false equivalence of "Oh, well then I identify as ____" are plain dishonest. There is no large overwhelming phenomena of people genuinely asserting that they're Thor, that they're toasters, or that they're another race. The blatantly obvious, and I hope disingenuous, slippery slope/false equivalents are so tiresome.

    Don't pretend that your guys' anti-trans arguments are science-based, because they're simply not. No one is refuting the science. A person born with a penis, in most cases, is a person who was born a man, born XY, and born with a penis. Testosterone eventually floods their systems if unaltered, etc. etc.

    The problem is that your arguments are philosophically based and being asserted otherwise. They're based on very subjective notions. A typically implied assertion is that definitions shouldn't change/adapt, especially if they're so closely tied to your fragile sexualities and identities. You'll argue that a person is delusional because they claim they're a man and have everything you'd describe as female, and, by YOUR philosophically rigid rationalization, they are not a man, because we have always defined a man to entail certain things and that can't and shouldn't change - it says so in my 2008 Biology book, and science books never change! - which is entirely subjective, many times further "justified" by some mythical "natural order" or some delusional belief in a god, further presenting delusional reasoning by the claim that we'd even know anything about him. Not to mention that ancient cultures actually had a more fluid view of gender too.

    Essentially, anti-trans people here are placing their subjective and often faith-based reasoning in front of them to shield themselves from the fact that they are being heartless. They also seem to quite ironically be evolutionarily flawed by way of non-empathetic group behavior, inevitably halting societal progress (for a time) and surely becoming the laughing stock, losing side of history who "knew they were right."

    In the end, if you're intellectually sound, you'll realize that there is no absolutely conclusive, immalleable facts on gender, but we do have more evidence to support gender separate from sex than we do evidence that gender is inherently the same thing as sex, and if you're emotionally sound, you'll recognize that the default position should be to support trans people and do the incredibly easy task of respecting their claimed identities which we have no scientific - not philosophical - argument against.
    Last edited by zom; 06-03-15 at 03:55 AM.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    but at the end of the day genetically they are the sex they were born.
    Here's the thing, I am not aware of any studies that looks at the genetics of TG's. So how do you know they are the standard genetics? Maybe they're Chimeras or have AIS or other genetic anomalies.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    Eh, while I tend to agree that any deviation from male/female guy/girl is nonsensical, I think that the side presenting gender as a separate, though extremely frequently tied, entity to birth sex has more evidence to their claim which is that gender can be separate, and that gender is more of a feeling than it is a currently known gene-identified aspect of biology. I understand the appeal of simplicity and consistency, but what's appealing is not always right or true. The burden of proof really lies on those who are saying that, essentially, because transgender people make up a minority of the population, we cannot therefore learn anything useful about gender through them. It lies on those who claim that gender identity doesn't exist, because there has been evidence presented that it does exist - at least in a good portion of people.

    And all of the posts here using the false equivalence of "Oh, well then I identify as ____" are plain dishonest. There is no large overwhelming phenomena of people genuinely asserting that they're Thor, that they're toasters, or that they're another race. The blatantly obvious, and I hope disingenuous, slippery slope/false equivalents are so tiresome.

    Don't pretend that your guys' anti-trans arguments are science-based, because they're simply not. No one is refuting the science. A person born with a penis, in most cases, is a person who was born a man, born XY, and born with a penis. Testosterone eventually floods their systems if unaltered, etc. etc.

    The problem is that your arguments are philosophically based and being asserted otherwise. They're based on very subjective notions. A typically implied assertion is that definitions shouldn't change/adapt, especially if they're so closely tied to your fragile sexualities and identities. You'll argue that a person is delusional because they claim they're a man and have everything you'd describe as female, and, by YOUR philosophically rigid rationalization, they are not a man, because we have always defined a man to entail certain things and that can't and shouldn't change - it says so in my 2008 Biology book, and science books never change! - which is entirely subjective, many times further "justified" by some mythical "natural order" or some delusional belief in a god, further presenting delusional reasoning by the claim that we'd even know anything about him. Not to mention that ancient cultures actually had a more fluid view of gender too.

    Essentially, anti-trans people here are placing their subjective and often faith-based reasoning in front of them to shield themselves from the fact that they are being heartless. They also seem to quite ironically be evolutionarily flawed by way of non-empathetic group behavior, inevitably halting societal progress (for a time) and surely becoming the laughing stock, losing side of history who "knew they were right."

    In the end, if you're intellectually sound, you'll realize that there is no absolutely conclusive, immalleable facts on gender, but we do have more evidence to support gender separate from sex than we do evidence that gender is inherently the same thing as sex, and if you're emotionally sound, you'll recognize that the default position should be to support trans people and do the incredibly easy task of respecting their claimed identities which we have no scientific - not philosophical - argument against.
    There is no such thing as mental gender. you are either masculine or feminine or both in your pshyche (not to be confused with gender). Then there is male, female, and other, and none for gender (hermaphrodites and people born without a gender). You are saying that some guy who never met his dad, was raised by his mom, and 80% effeminate is a girl because he thinks in a feminine way?
    Like a stone. A bit bigger than the dirt. Waiting. Except not.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    There is no such thing as mental gender. you are either masculine or feminine or both in your pshyche (not to be confused with gender). Then there is male, female, and other, and none for gender (hermaphrodites and people born without a gender). You are saying that some guy who never met his dad, was raised by his mom, and 80% effeminate is a girl because he thinks in a feminine way?
    There is a section of the brain that tells you what your gender is and is formed through fluxes of hormones. Some people get the opposite hormones fluxed that are typically associated with the opposite gender. Anyone who says that they're not the gender their brain physically formed to support is just playing against the facts and using a subjective parameter to disregard the facts, which I'm not interested in. I'm interested in both the truth and having empathy, both of which are suited in supporting transgender individuals.

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