View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    I think it should be noted that there are varying degrees of bodily dysphoria in transgender individuals. Some feel no dysphoria, some feel little, and some feel much. Dysphoria is very real, very widely researched and provable, and is the only possible contender to be classified as a mental illness. However, assessing anecdotes from many trans people, there is often the thread of societal expectations that runs through their description of the dysphoria - the dysphoria that causes what many are referring to as "mutilation" and such to take place. In the end, it is very possible that what is causing harm to these peoples' bodies is the fact that humans are very categorical creatures and do not like to be told that they don't have enough information to categorize something. In essence, I can understand what you rigid thinkers in here are logically placing in front of you, but you very well might be contributing to mass mutilations and deception - because you cannot force yourself to accept these people as they come. They know you won't call them a man because you see a fair face and breasts - that's what's causing the dysphoria and what is leading to the mutilation and adherence to societal standards in the first place. Your argument stems from the disbelief in the existence of gender identity, and though much evidence leads to it possibly existing, you would rather be heartless and categorize "not knowing and being compassionate with respect to that absence of evidence" as "lying and being dishonest because I know that the absence of evidence is actually the evidence of absense"

    I admit myself in doubting the actual existence of gender identity (which is basically gender not inherently tied to sex that can be applied to all people). That doesn't mean I should be rigid, dishonest, and utterly non-compassionate nor empathetic (which I'd describe as "evil" by the way) in positing that I am the just one in going against your preferences and disrespecting you in presence of the possibility that your condition might actually be completely non-delusional, and thus completely non-"curable". It is entirely non-scientific and dogmatic. I don't know if gender identity exists, I personally doubt it in the lack of any sort of gender I feel for myself, but that is just one mere account.

    To address the thread's main question: Yes, they should, and parameters revolving around gender/sex should be more situational and descriptive. Sure, some things will become convoluted and generally non-functional, i.e. gender identification via I.D. In the desirable far future, trans people won't have to "mutilate" themselves because society will accept them without such procedures. Dysphoria, I think we'll find with inevitable progress, was a completely societally induced dissatisfaction. We have to, however, realize that progress always comes with drawbacks. Yes, you could not actively ID people by sex or gender now, because someone who has XX chromosomes, the corresponding hormones, and the corresponding body parts could be identified as male. A con indeed, somewhat countered by the fact that humans are largely linguistic and could describe someone perfectly well not using such terminology. On the other hand, there would be no miscommunications, no deception (purposeful or not), and no ambiguity as to what they're packing in their pants. But we can't have that, because enforcing a possibly inaccurate binary categorization system that you "know" is true due to a lack of evidence disproving your claim is entirely encompassing what is known as "telling the truth" and "being honest." It is more important than the mental and physical well-being of many people.

    Ultimately, this is an issue of not wanting any new information to affect new, fitting changes in society. It is an issue of rigid, black-and-white thinking in a world covered in shades of gray. It is a refusal to ditch long held standards for fear of the unknown - and possibly the truth. It is a fear of having to relearn - having to critically access yourself and your own beliefs. It's a fear to move forward personally or contribute to a society moving forward collectively. It is conservatism at it's best. It is conservatism at its worst.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    I think it should be noted that there are varying degrees of bodily dysphoria in transgender individuals.
    An excellent post, Zom. Thank you. I indicated in my last post that I would not respond except to people of good intent and here you are!

    I was prepared to respond to people who doubt or even deny the existence of transgenderism. I did not think I would get serious argument about the existence of gender dysphoria which, as you say, does vary widely. I was not prepared for the flat declarations of a conclusion - you are male. Period. End of discussion. No consideration given even to what it means to be male or female or the difference between biological sex and gender identity which is embedded in the DSM-V's treatment of GD.

    I respect your questions regarding the existence of gender identity, that internal sense we have of being male or female. I feel mine deeply but I wonder if that ability to feel a disconnect between gender identity and sex assigned at birth is open to the cis-gender population. I do not think there is much question that trans people feel a different gender identity compared to their biological sex at birth - that is a rough definition of gender dysphoria.

    Do your doubts relate more to the etiology of gender dysphoria?

    I appreciate your thoughtful and kind approach to this topic.

    Allie

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    You said that would treat a transwoman in the same restroom as your daughter as a perverted man. How exactly are you supposed to determine whether she is a transferable or a cis female?
    That's supposed to be transfemale. I missed that my pad had autocorrected. sorry.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    An excellent post, Zom. Thank you. I indicated in my last post that I would not respond except to people of good intent and here you are!

    I was prepared to respond to people who doubt or even deny the existence of transgenderism. I did not think I would get serious argument about the existence of gender dysphoria which, as you say, does vary widely. I was not prepared for the flat declarations of a conclusion - you are male. Period. End of discussion. No consideration given even to what it means to be male or female or the difference between biological sex and gender identity which is embedded in the DSM-V's treatment of GD.

    I respect your questions regarding the existence of gender identity, that internal sense we have of being male or female. I feel mine deeply but I wonder if that ability to feel a disconnect between gender identity and sex assigned at birth is open to the cis-gender population. I do not think there is much question that trans people feel a different gender identity compared to their biological sex at birth - that is a rough definition of gender dysphoria.

    Do your doubts relate more to the etiology of gender dysphoria?

    I appreciate your thoughtful and kind approach to this topic.

    Allie
    I guess my doubts are really rooted in the terminology and how it's applied. For example, for the vast majority of people (who would be labeled as "cis") I'm not convinced that they "have" a gender in the way that transgender people typically describe gender - as some deep rooted sense of self and identity that can be described in terms of femininity, masculinity, or something in between. When "cis" guys say they feel like men, I don't see any evidence that what they really are referring to isn't either the social constructs surrounding gender and gender roles or the physical aspects of having "male" labelled body parts and hormones. Some guess that because there isn't an incongruence in cis people, they don't have anything to notice, but it's important to notice that that's just a theory I guess is what I'm saying. We know that a lot if not all of the dysphoria is directly or indirectly related to trans people not being perceived and referred to as what they feel, I'm just not entirely sure of what it is that they're feeling and how that should actually be defined.

    Regardless, evidence points to trans people not being delusional, but I think the questionable terminology and sometimes seemingly contradictory descriptions using said terminology may not be accurate and may actually be contributing to the very skeptical views surrounding trans people. For example, what does "female" mean aside from a biological descriptor of the born sex, and what does it mean to "feel" female? I'm a decently effeminate guy with no regard for gender roles and such. I don't care if what I do or dress like isn't normal (to a degree). I'm not sure how you would describe me doing any particular task "as a guy" or "as a girl" outside of gender roles. I do plenty of things that are "for girls" and I have plenty female-like tendencies with emotions. What does it mean to experience something "as a woman"? I guess I'm saying that the only reason I feel that I "identify" as a guy is because I have a penis and a lot of testosterone. I don't think I have a gender identity, yet it has become accepted with little scrutiny to be something that can be applied across the board, and we all know that with such a nuanced issue, everything should be scrutinized and tested a sensible amount so as to move forward.

    It is a fact that trans people exist. It is a fact that gender dysphoria cannot be treated as a mental condition, and cannot be "fixed" as such. The one thing that isn't fact (but is far from being proven "wrong") is that trans people are inherently the gender they are claiming. I believe in treating these people with respect and kindness regardless. I see a lot of "it's intellectually dishonest to recognize their feelings because feelings can be wrong" type arguments over various sites and even this thread, but in the end there really isn't conclusive evidence or facts that cover all of the details, so I'm convinced that anyone who defaults to the "I don't know for sure what's true but I'm not calling you what you what you want because I believe it's not true based on [insert subjectively selected parameter here]" is an ass. Much of their arguments for not succumbing to compassion and admitting they don't know everything surrounding the issue is a bunch of slippery slope conjecture honestly. Just treat the people how they want to be treated. No one is asking you to lie, because no one even knows the full truth. They're just asking for some compassion and respect - some humanity.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    An excellent post, Zom. Thank you. I indicated in my last post that I would not respond except to people of good intent and here you are!

    I was prepared to respond to people who doubt or even deny the existence of transgenderism. I did not think I would get serious argument about the existence of gender dysphoria which, as you say, does vary widely. I was not prepared for the flat declarations of a conclusion - you are male. Period. End of discussion. No consideration given even to what it means to be male or female or the difference between biological sex and gender identity which is embedded in the DSM-V's treatment of GD.

    I respect your questions regarding the existence of gender identity, that internal sense we have of being male or female. I feel mine deeply but I wonder if that ability to feel a disconnect between gender identity and sex assigned at birth is open to the cis-gender population. I do not think there is much question that trans people feel a different gender identity compared to their biological sex at birth - that is a rough definition of gender dysphoria.

    Do your doubts relate more to the etiology of gender dysphoria?

    I appreciate your thoughtful and kind approach to this topic.

    Allie
    Interesting to see you disregard my need to classify things on my own term. Yet i leave your classification of yourself alone. You are a 1 way street yourself. Seems hypocritical and you are resorting more to pity and guilt tripping. Accusing others of ignoring yet you ignore. Then go and try to shove it in people you ignored faces by including stipulations of praise to those who jumped through your hoops.

    Why am I wrong for wanting to catagorize individuals as "effiminate males" and "masculine females" and you are right for wanting to catagorize them as "men trapped in a womans body" and "women trapped in mens bodies". When all i want is for me to be able to classify things on my own term without you trying to guilt trip and always pull the victim card.

    Its seems like you want me to agree to everything on your part or I am a monster. Which makes me think you dont want to educate and debate, you just want to rub peoples face in ****.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 05-29-15 at 12:56 PM.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by zom View Post
    I guess my doubts are really rooted in the terminology and how it's applied.
    Zom, thank you for the discussion. I will look for the cite but the American Academy of Pediatrics believes the innate sense of being male or female is set by the age of four. I know at that age I already had a sense of wrongness.

    I have only three specific memories when I was five years old. One of these memories is of my mother telling me that whether a baby was born a boy or girl was a matter of chance. I must have looked confused so she said, “it’s like a coin toss.” This statement had such emotional power that I remember where I was sitting and the sounds of the floor furnace to my right making those little popping and pinging metallic sounds as this information thundered inside of me.

    It already felt wrong but now I knew what went wrong. I lost the stupid coin toss. It had gone horribly wrong. I lost when I was meant to have won.
    I wanted a do over. 2 out of 3? 3 out of 5? Whatever it took.

    Trust me: there was nothing in that time (nope, won’t date myself entirely!) and place (small town, rural Oklahoma) to make a five year old kid think that being born a boy was a crushing loss but I felt loss to my marrow. It was a sense of wrongness, an epiphany followed by a miasma which never went away. Of course, I did not know the words epiphany or miasma in that time and place any more than I knew words like “transgender” or “gender dysphoria.” There was no name for what I was and, as far as I knew, I was utterly alone.

    I now feel a sense of immense relief which is impossible to fully describe. It sometimes takes my breath away. Like 41% of our population, when I was 19 I attempted suicide. How I felt then is a distant memory to which I have a hard time even connecting. I wish I had my doctor friend’s research citations as to how suicidal ideation and attempts plummet when the WPATH Standards of Care for GD are followed. Society can make life hard for trans* people but the internal struggle stops.

    Here’s one more point before connecting back to your thoughtful points. With men who have their penises amputated for some reason like cancer, the phantom limb syndrome occurs in 65% to 85% of cases.

    Of all the people I know who have had reassignment surgery, none of them have a phantom limb. Before my surgery this was a huge fear of mine. I would go through all of this pain and expense ($22K about) and end up feeling it was still there. I think something neurological is going on and this is not the only evidence I could cite.

    I have no doubt about gender identity being separate from how that identity is expressed. I think gender identity probably breaks down into a U shaped curve with most at either ends of male or female (including trans) but with some identifying in the middle. I say this because I have friends who express that duality. I wonder in those cases whether they are confusing gender identity with gender expression, i.e. how we express masculinity or femininity.

    Gender expression is infinitely variable within cultural constraints.

    You are the only person to ask the relevant question. What does it mean to be, for example, a woman? DNA? A person with androgen insensitivity syndrome has XY chromosomes but has female anatomy at birth.

    The leading theory is that trans women have a similar insensitivity to the androgen spurt which occurs in brain differentiation. My doctor friend assures me there are different male and female structures in the brain and that several studies show a similarity between the brains of transwomen and female women.

    DNA is an incredibly complex code which sometimes goes awry. If that coding does not create male genitals, is a person still a man because of XY chromosomes? If that coding does not switch the default female setting in the brain to male, is that person a man?

    Coding which does not work is irrelevant. What is between the legs is not nearly as important as what is between the ears.

    I agree that no one knows the full truth. We may be far more complex than we ever imagined. Until we have some kind of Kurzweilian explosion of understanding about the body and brain, some of this will be people doing their best under a situation which, if not treated, causes them to want to die. 41% is the suicide attempt rate. Suicidal ideation is almost universal in cases of untreated GD.

    I have little doubts about the broad outlines of GD and gender identity.

    Finally, (yes, this post will end) I agree terminology is in need of a rework. “Trans,” as I’m sure you know is a latin prefix for “across,” e.g. transcontinental. I do not think I am moving across genders. I am only being myself. (“Cis,” as I'm also sure you know, is “on the same side,” e.g. Cisatlantic.) Fifty years from now we will almost certainly use different terms.

    Allie

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Do you think that maybe some people fantasize about being a woman? And they think they will be more desired if they were a woman? Like say a guy who wants to date other guys. Specifically a guy who wants to date guys who want vaginas. Is it possible that their "fantasy" gets construed with social man vs woman norms? Back since before i went through puberty I wanted to be a pretty woman that attracted. I felt like vaginas were more powerful and I fantasized and wish I had one. Can an effiminate guy who feels like a woman ALSO let their fantasies convelute their state of being in their plight to feel desired? As in maybe some guys just really really really wish they had a puss and they are allowing their sincere side and their "perverted" side to merge into a conveluted mess for the exact type of attention they crave?

    Back around puberty I used to see how much girls enjoyed sex in porn. All the moaning and stuff. And then id see the guys just going at it without an expression on their face. And it used to make me wish I was female, because they obviously have more pleasure and attention. But then I learned to moan as a guy.

    I think i used to mix my effeminate psyche with my sexual desire and fantasies. But then I unconfused myself by thinking outside of societies classifications.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Interesting to see you disregard my need to classify things on my own term. Yet i leave your classification of yourself alone. You are a 1 way street yourself. Seems hypocritical and you are resorting more to pity and guilt tripping. Accusing others of ignoring yet you ignore. Then go and try to shove it in people you ignored faces by including stipulations of praise to those who jumped through your hoops.

    Why am I wrong for wanting to catagorize individuals as "effiminate males" and "masculine females" and you are right for wanting to catagorize them as "men trapped in a womans body" and "women trapped in mens bodies". When all i want is for me to be able to classify things on my own term without you trying to guilt trip and always pull the victim card.

    Its seems like you want me to agree to everything on your part or I am a monster. Which makes me think you dont want to educate and debate, you just want to rub peoples face in ****.
    In an earlier post you said my nature was "pretend" and a "lie." If you caught me in a bathroom with your daughter you would "treat me as a perverted man." You expressed faux sympathy for me being born a man. You were sorry that you did not think I was a "pretty little lady" or that you did not want to "breed" with me.

    You ended with the assertion of a "right to classify and categorize stuff on my own terms."

    Being that "stuff" which you are "classifying and categorizing," I do not see you as having any significant rights in play. I also do not see us having intercourse in any form.

    I do not care if you do not think I am a pretty little lady and do not think of myself in those terms on most days. (Hint: Most women never think of themselves in these terms. We always find fault no matter our size. This has been a huge epiphany now that most of my friends are cis-women. Welcome to the beauty culture!)

    You assume I want to "breed" with you. Assuming you mean have sex, I do not breed indiscriminately and never with men. I am dating a very nice lesbian who is amazing.

    Even though I am lowly "stuff," I do have to go to the bathroom. Looking far more female than male, having female hormones, a vagina, breasts and an F on my driver's license, I go to the female bathroom. I think you, and those like you, would "treat me as a perverted man" whichever bathroom I entered. FYI, there has never been a case of a trans person harming anyone in a bathroom. Men with fully functioning organs and a sex-drive powered by male hormones are far more likely to commit acts of sexual abuse against women in any setting than my population.

    [/insert sarcasm font]I am sorry you felt ignored [/end font] but I do not feel we have a basis on which to have a reasonable discussion.

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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaD View Post
    In an earlier post you said my nature was "pretend" and a "lie." If you caught me in a bathroom with your daughter you would "treat me as a perverted man." You expressed faux sympathy for me being born a man. You were sorry that you did not think I was a "pretty little lady" or that you did not want to "breed" with me.

    You ended with the assertion of a "right to classify and categorize stuff on my own terms."

    Being that "stuff" which you are "classifying and categorizing," I do not see you as having any significant rights in play. I also do not see us having intercourse in any form.

    I do not care if you do not think I am a pretty little lady and do not think of myself in those terms on most days. (Hint: Most women never think of themselves in these terms. We always find fault no matter our size. This has been a huge epiphany now that most of my friends are cis-women. Welcome to the beauty culture!)

    You assume I want to "breed" with you. Assuming you mean have sex, I do not breed indiscriminately and never with men. I am dating a very nice lesbian who is amazing.

    Even though I am lowly "stuff," I do have to go to the bathroom. Looking far more female than male, having female hormones, a vagina, breasts and an F on my driver's license, I go to the female bathroom. I think you, and those like you, would "treat me as a perverted man" whichever bathroom I entered. FYI, there has never been a case of a trans person harming anyone in a bathroom. Men with fully functioning organs and a sex-drive powered by male hormones are far more likely to commit acts of sexual abuse against women in any setting than my population.

    [/insert sarcasm font]I am sorry you felt ignored [/end font] but I do not feel we have a basis on which to have a reasonable discussion.
    If you dont have a penis then I dont care about you entering the womens bathroom what so ever. Have fun in there. Hope it all comes out alright.
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    re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Do you think that maybe some people fantasize about being a woman? And they think they will be more desired if they were a woman? Like say a guy who wants to date other guys. Specifically a guy who wants to date guys who want vaginas. Is it possible that their "fantasy" gets construed with social man vs woman norms? Back since before i went through puberty I wanted to be a pretty woman that attracted. I felt like vaginas were more powerful and I fantasized and wish I had one. Can an effiminate guy who feels like a woman ALSO let their fantasies convelute their state of being in their plight to feel desired? As in maybe some guys just really really really wish they had a puss and they are allowing their sincere side and their "perverted" side to merge into a conveluted mess for the exact type of attention they crave?

    Back around puberty I used to see how much girls enjoyed sex in porn. All the moaning and stuff. And then id see the guys just going at it without an expression on their face. And it used to make me wish I was female, because they obviously have more pleasure and attention. But then I learned to moan as a guy.

    I think i used to mix my effeminate psyche with my sexual desire and fantasies. But then I unconfused myself by thinking outside of societies classifications.
    Chris, I don't know because I've never wanted to date a guy. Very sincerely, I suggest counseling.

    I now see the source of your strong feelings. You are confusing your own feelings of sexual desire with my feelings of identity.

    My suggestion about counseling is not made flippantly.

    I wish you well.

    Allie
    Last edited by AlyssaD; 05-29-15 at 02:42 PM.

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