View Poll Results: Should transwomen be legally trreated as women?

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  • Yes

    77 47.53%
  • No

    63 38.89%
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    11 6.79%
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Thread: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?[W:165,1392]

  1. #231
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    This is intolerance of difference of opinion.

    What it should be classified is a mental disorder.

    There is a disorder where people want thier limbs cut off. Should we indulge that?


    And before you throw out the "there is scientific proof". no there isn't there are theory and hypothesis, there is no factual determination. And while we don't know, forcing others to indulge in others fantasy isn't the answer.


    Run what you brung. if you have a penis and want to wear a dress, godspeed, if you are an adult and you can find someone willing to give you harmones, and surgery godspeed.

    But to expect others, no, coerce others to accept your views, is wrong.



    I personally don't care what bathroom they use, I can see why men claiming to be women and wanting to enter womens bathrooms, would be viewed as troubling by some.
    I've no problem using the womens' bathroom with transwomen, or using mixed facilities with men. YOU GO INTO THE CUBICLE AND YOU LOCK THE FREAKING DOOR. It's actually quite simple.

    Note the man who claims ad nauseum not to be a bigot is now having a go at the trans community.
    "C'est le dernier qui a parlé qui a raison"
    Amina.

  2. #232
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    No they aren't.
    Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.

  3. #233
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.
    Except for the fact that we do not identify people that way, not in real life.

    Let's take Caroline for instance:

    https://youtu.be/hdUX3_jFc_g

    Caroline could easily be one of those people that someone stops and says "you are a man, you shouldn't be in here", yet she was born intersex.

    Now, I realize that she would be an exception to this, but the problem is that we judge people's sex/gender off of the way they look, and then claim that they are their sex because of what they were born with. Plus, given the differences in how transgendered people's brains have been shown to operate, to function, it could very well be that they have some sort of issue with how their brain functions when it comes to gender, making theirs function much closer to that of the opposite sex of their borne genitalia.

    Then there is the woman who was genetically a man and still ended up being a girl, just born without a uterus.



    Again, I get that this is a rare disease, and not normal of most transgenders (as far as we know), but these types of things happen and why should someone have to prove this is what causes them to be "different" rather than simply an issue with the wiring in their brains? We may simply haven't discovered yet exactly why they are the way they are and it is some sort of actual disorder or genetic issue, especially for many such people. There is no reason to make them wait.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #234
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I think the question of what exactly that would mean is a good one, but in theory I think they should. In theory though, women and men are treated equally before the law, so "legally" I'm not sure what the difference would be.
    Broadly speaking in laws where a distinction is made, e.g. marriage, should transwomen be treated as women.

  5. #235
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Biologically they are. A penis makes a person a male. I am not out to hurt anybody's feelings, just to state a fact.
    If the penis is surgically turned inside out?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

  6. #236
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    link to this please..
    I have already discussed it, but to repeat:

    The condition of being a woman is based on more than just a composition of chromosomes, and the nature of a person's reproductive system. This is easily demonstrated by THE FACT than some women have the chromosomal structure as males and do not have the organs necessary for reproduction. While it is true that such instances are exceptions, they are there nonetheless, and these individuals do not feel that they are not women as a result. In fact some do not notice it until they note that they do not experience the phenomenon of menstruation.

    GIRLS with Swyer syndrome have an XY chromosomal makeup (as boys normally do) instead of an XX chromosomal makeup (as girls normally do). Despite having the XY chromosomal makeup, girls with Swyer syndrome look female and have functional female genitalia and structures including a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes.
    Swyer syndrome

    Rather the condition of being a woman can be more accurately described as an experience characterized by such things as

    1. Sexuality
    2. Tastes in the presentation of appearance, such as choice of clothing
    3. Biological functions
    4. Anatomical structures
    5. Tastes in activity
    6. Tastes in aesthetics

    Although there is variance among women within these items, when we note a strong presence of some or all of these that are common to women in general, then we can say that the person is indeed undergoing the experience of being a woman. As such, it is not unrealistic to treat them in that way, at the very least in the legal sense.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1064512300

    So a few points

    1. Although one can put forward the notion that a women is someone who has XY chromosomes, we observe that there are women born with male chromosomes who identify themselves as female.

    2. Although some women who have the biological characteristics of female chromosomes and sexual reproductive organs, they still identify themselves as being male.

    3. Altering biological characteristics does not necessarily result in the self identification of being a woman.

    Therefore we can conclude that the experience of being a woman, although it is related to biological characteristics, is not necessarily dependent on them, i.e. there is more to being a woman than having female biological and anatomical characteristics.

  7. #237
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except for the fact that we do not identify people that way, not in real life.

    Let's take Caroline for instance:

    https://youtu.be/hdUX3_jFc_g

    Caroline could easily be one of those people that someone stops and says "you are a man, you shouldn't be in here", yet she was born intersex.

    Now, I realize that she would be an exception to this, but the problem is that we judge people's sex/gender off of the way they look, and then claim that they are their sex because of what they were born with. Plus, given the differences in how transgendered people's brains have been shown to operate, to function, it could very well be that they have some sort of issue with how their brain functions when it comes to gender, making theirs function much closer to that of the opposite sex of their borne genitalia.

    Then there is the woman who was genetically a man and still ended up being a girl, just born without a uterus.



    Again, I get that this is a rare disease, and not normal of most transgenders (as far as we know), but these types of things happen and why should someone have to prove this is what causes them to be "different" rather than simply an issue with the wiring in their brains? We may simply haven't discovered yet exactly why they are the way they are and it is some sort of actual disorder or genetic issue, especially for many such people. There is no reason to make them wait.
    None of the (my) arguments are about an absloute...

  8. #238
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    If the penis is surgically turned inside out?
    That is just cosmetic...

  9. #239
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    Here's something of interest that talks about the types of problems that transgendered people face


    Many Americans have a profound lack of understanding of what it means to be transgender. Consequently, transgender people commonly face a wide variety of discriminatory barriers to full equality. Transgender people sometimes face difficulties meeting their basic needs (getting a job, housing, or health care) or in having their gender identity respected (like in the simple act of going to a public restroom).

    Much of the discrimination transgender people face mirrors that experienced by lesbian, gay and bisexual people, but is often more severe. Additionally, transgender people face a range of legal issues that LGB people rarely do: identity documents not reflective of one’s gender, sex-segregated public restrooms and other facilities, dress codes that perpetuate traditional gender norms, and barriers to access to appropriate health care.
    ...
    https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/dis...sgender-people

  10. #240
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    Re: Should transwomen be legally treated as women?

    This is a concept I had not heard of before. Transfeminism, it is rather interesting

    Feminism vs transfeminism
    Common foundations

    A core tenet of feminism is that biology does not and must not equal destiny. The idea that women should not be held down by traditional gender roles plays a major role in all feminisms. Transfeminism expands on that premise to argue that people in general should not be confined by sex/gender norms.

    Feminists have traditionally explored the boundaries of what it means to be a woman. Transfeminists argue that trans people and cisgender feminists confront society's conventional views of sex and gender in similar ways. Transgender liberation theory offers feminism a new vantage point from which to view gender as a social construct, even offering a new meaning of gender.

    Transfeminist critics of mainstream feminism say that as an institutionalized movement, feminism has lost sight of the basic idea that biology is not destiny. In fact, they argue, many feminists seem perfectly comfortable equating sex and gender and insisting on a given destiny for trans persons based on nothing more than biology. Transgenderism resists and challenges the fixedness of gender that traditional approaches to women's studies depend upon.

    Transgender people are frequently targets of anti-trans violence. While non-trans women also routinely face violence, transfeminists understand anti-trans violence to be a form of gender policing.

    Differences

    Despite the similarities, there are also differences between traditional feminism and transfeminism. Transfeminism stands in stark contrast to second-wave feminism. Transfeminists often criticize the ideas of a universal sisterhood, aligning more with the third wave's appreciation for the diversity of women's experience. Citing their common experience, directly challenge the idea that femininity is an entirely social construction. Instead, transfeminists view gender as a multifaceted set of diverse intrinsic and social qualities. For example, there are trans/cis men/women who express themselves in an unusually feminine or masculine way. Because this strongly affects how the person experiences their gender, and also their standing within patriarchy, transfeminists would argue that masculine/feminine expression is an important concept worthy of feminist inquiry, to be compared and contrasted with both birth sex and gender identity.
    ....
    Transfeminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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