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Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?


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jamesrage

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Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
 
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Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.

As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.

The poll is doesnt work its horrible but that aside I dont think your premise is true.
Maybe I missed them but i dont recall see one single person claim "ANY" discrimination is bad

What I have seen are the majority of people against ILLEGAL discrimaintion and or violating peoples equal/civil rights.

Lets now go through your examples for clarification.
The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.? Adolph Hitler is not a race, gender, religion etc.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK KKK is not a race, gender, religion etc. BUT I will say I don believe there are some cases on the books where they claimed it fit a religion though those cases maybe old.
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets Pro-life is not a race, gender, religion etc.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding Gay is a sexual orientation and it would be illegal discrimination. Since the word "sex" is often mentioned instead of gender I wouldnt be surprised if that addition is made soon and it national. Meaning that sexual orientation and gender are covered under sex.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

The poll is doesnt work its horrible but that aside I dont think your premise is true.
Maybe I missed them but i dont recall see one single person claim "ANY" discrimination is bad

What I have seen are the majority of people against ILLEGAL discrimaintion and or violating peoples equal/civil rights.

Lets now go through your examples for clarification.
The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.? Adolph Hitler is not a race, gender, religion etc.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK KKK is not a race, gender, religion etc. BUT I will say I don believe there are some cases on the books where they claimed it fit a religion though those cases maybe old.
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets Pro-life is not a race, gender, religion etc.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding Gay is a sexual orientation and it would be illegal discrimination. Since the word "sex" is often mentioned instead of gender I wouldnt be surprised if that addition is made soon and it national. Meaning that sexual orientation and gender are covered under sex.

If you are going to look at it from a legal standpoint, then it depends on the local/state laws that apply, and those vary widely. For example, in Illinois, it is illegal for a public accommodation to discriminate based on "Racial, Gender, Color, Religion, National Origin, Ancestry, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Military Status, Age, Unfavorable Military Discharge and Retaliation for opposing any of the above categories". In Indiana, the following: "race, color, national origin, ancestry, religion, sex, familial status (having children under 18) and disablility(sic)". For Georgia I can only find the law pertaining to disabilities, though that could be because it is late and I am tired. South Carolina: " race, color, religion, or national origin". It should be obvious from these that it varies quite a bit from state to state. None of those would cover the first 4 examples in the poll, precisely because they are different types of situations from the last.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih [sic] or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.

The only one where I did not vote was the black hardware store owner selling lumber and gas cans to the KKK. This is different from all the other situations, inasmuch as it simply presumes someone walking in off the street into a store, and buying generic merchandise that the store has in stock for sale. The store owner wouldn't even have reason to know or care what the affiliation is of the customer, nor what he intended to do with the items he was purchasing. Barring any clear evidence to the contrary, the store owner should just presume that the customer wants to build something with that lumber, and the gas cans to carry gasoline to be used as fuel for vehicles or equipment.

In every other case, we are talking about a merchant being asked to provide goods or services that are specifically in support of something that that merchant opposes. I do not believe it is ever justifiable to use the force of law to compel this of anyone.
 
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Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.

Businesses are owned by people. People have brains, and most people have consciences.

I have a big problem with forcing anyone to do anything that is against his conscience, and this includes compelling him to allow his property (including any business in which he may have an ownership) to do so.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.

Actually the Bill of Rights (specifically the First Amendment) very strongly supports your position. It is not rationally possible to reconcile the abuse of the power of government to force anyone to violate his conscience and to engage in any business that he does not want to engage in; with the freedoms of expression, religion, and association that are upheld by the First Amendment. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments reinforce the property rights that are relevant to this issue, with regard to the right to be secure in one's property, to not be deprived of property or liberty without due process of law, and to not have one's property taken for public use without just compensation. Remember that a business is the property of its owners; and its owners have the same rights with regard thereto as with any other property.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

If you are going to look at it from a legal standpoint, then it depends on the local/state laws that apply, and those vary widely. For example, in Illinois, it is illegal for a public accommodation to discriminate based on "Racial, Gender, Color, Religion, National Origin, Ancestry, Disability, Sexual Orientation, Military Status, Age, Unfavorable Military Discharge and Retaliation for opposing any of the above categories". In Indiana, the following: "race, color, national origin, ancestry, religion, sex, familial status (having children under 18) and disablility(sic)". For Georgia I can only find the law pertaining to disabilities, though that could be because it is late and I am tired. South Carolina: " race, color, religion, or national origin". It should be obvious from these that it varies quite a bit from state to state. None of those would cover the first 4 examples in the poll, precisely because they are different types of situations from the last.

You are 100% correct, For sexual orientation it does vary greatly and in some areas its not included in the list at all. This is way I sated that IMO that addition would be made national soon. Sorry that's my mistake, I should have been more clear with that example. The way I wrote it kinda didnt make sense, saying I think it will be national soon but not discussing why or stating that it currently isnt was incomplete. Thanks.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I do not believe it is ever justifiable to use the force of law to compel this of anyone.

In every other case, we are talking about a merchant being asked to provide goods or services that are specifically in support of something that that merchant opposes. well you should be happy thats not going on then.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.

First of all, it might be interesting to note that companies do not have a conscience. The owner and the people working there do. So the question should rightly be, whether a citizen may be forced to act against her conscience.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.

Which might mean that we have overshot and need to roll back a number of laws.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.

As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.

Okay, let's take the KKK/gay example and change it a little. A KKK wedding with all the paraphernalia and a SSM one? In both cases it is people. In one case the word "SSM" and in the other "KKK" is on the cake. You might have a different opinion of the two, but otherwise?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

The wording of the poll question and the options are tortured and selective beyond belief, but I voted anyway for all the good it'll do.

Ultimately it was crafted with a misunderstanding of the definition of discrimination.
 
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Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Okay, let's take the KKK/gay example and change it a little. A KKK wedding with all the paraphernalia and a SSM one? In both cases it is people. In one case the word "SSM" and in the other "KKK" is on the cake. You might have a different opinion of the two, but otherwise?

Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.

You know that the OP is talking about a business being the person who owns the business, so why act the fool and play stupid games with semantics?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.

I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.
 
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Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.

I don't think many of us doubt that's going on already.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.

That sort of defeats the purpose of discriminating doesn't it? Lying about your reasons simply denies you of the money for the sale without the satisfaction of insulting the customer because of his race or lifestyle. Without the "statement" the business simple loses money which is why this hasn't and won't work as a solution.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

How about a real example where a hooker decides she doesn't want to do black people.

It doesn't get more personal or discriminatory than that.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

"Your rights end where my nose begins."

Problem is, sometimes one's rights and another's nose overlap. Which takes precedence then, the rights or the nose? :shrug:
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain, either. If it's "I won't sell to you because you're part of this organization", it's probably not okay. But if you want a bunch of "I hate niggers and Jews" posters, then you're out of luck, because we don't make those at all, regardless of who asks, that's probably okay. Ideas vs identity.

The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain, either. If it's "I won't sell to you because you're part of this organization", it's probably not okay. But if you want a bunch of "I hate niggers and Jews" posters, then you're out of luck, because we don't make those at all, regardless of who asks, that's probably okay. Ideas vs identity.

The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.

I'm not confused about the issue of asking a business for a specialized product, but whether there's any difference between discriminating against an individual or an organization that represents that individual.
 
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