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Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    Votes: 16 84.2%

  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    Votes: 11 57.9%

  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    Votes: 5 26.3%

  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    Votes: 11 57.9%

  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    Votes: 3 15.8%

  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    Votes: 11 57.9%

  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    Votes: 12 63.2%

  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Total voters
    19
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

iguanaman said:
Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?
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So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

faithful_servant said:
So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
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Nazis actually committed genocide. Who does being gay harm?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Montecresto said:
Nazis actually committed genocide. Who does being gay harm?
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Please, if you refuse to serve nazi robot unicorns, you're discriminating.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

faithful_servant said:
So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
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Only if I had one on the menu. Most wouldn't though. You can't demand special items not normally supplied. A wedding cake is not a special item for a bakery that does weddings so your analogy is faulty. It is strange that you don't understand what public accommodation laws are and how they are enforced. Are you an American citizen?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Dovkan said:
Please, if you refuse to serve nazi robot unicorns, you're discriminating.
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But what if the Nazi robot unicorn is from a parallel earth?
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Helvidius said:
If a baker says, no matter your sexual preference, I will not make a cake for a gay wedding, is there really discrimination against the person? Are you not then discriminating against someone for their belief/idea in the sanctity of gay marriage?
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Yes, no. You are saying that you will not do business with someone (the person whose wedding it is) because of their sexual orientation. Beliefs and ideas, meanwhile, are NOT IDENTITY. Ideas are not protected against discrimination. Identity is.

If I walk in and say I'd like a cake celebrating Pearl Harbor as it is considered a holiday in my religion, and you refuse... Are you not discriminating against my religion? If you have a policy that you do not serve to anyone who believes that, and an entire religion believes that, are you discriminating against the idea or the people? At what point does your idea vs. people argument become so entangled that one cannot decipher between the two?
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Congratulations, you have now demonstrated why giving any legal credence to beliefs is complete BS. You are asking for the law to determine the sincerity of a belief. We both know that there is no religion that holds the bombing of Pearl Harbor as a holiday. But someone could simply make up their own faith and sincerely hold that belief. Ergo, no beliefs at all should have special protection under the law. Every single one should be treated exactly the same.

And if you argue you don't have to serve because it is the "idea" that you wish to discriminate against, are you not opening Pandora's box for all sorts of discrimination?
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No. I as the baker will make you the cake, no matter what you believe. But I won't write "hooray for the bombing of Pearl Harbor" on it. Who and what you are will not stop us from transacting. But I offer what I offer. Now, I'll make you the same cake I'll make for someone else even if you're going to use it for a celebration of the bombing. I don't care what it's for. It's not really any of my business. Nothing about you will stop me from doing the same transaction I would do with anyone else. Not even your beliefs.

You keep either linking hatred of gays as an intrinsic part of your religion, or not understanding the difference between a person believing something and a person being something.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

iguanaman said:
Only if I had one on the menu. Most wouldn't though. You can't demand special items not normally supplied. A wedding cake is not a special item for a bakery that does weddings so your analogy is faulty. It is strange that you don't understand what public accommodation laws are and how they are enforced. Are you an American citizen?
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There isn't a bakery on the planet that has a menu like -
Happy Birthday Billy
Happy Birthday William
Happy Birthday Willy
Happy Birthday Bill
Happy Birthday Bobby
Happy Birthday Bob
Happy Birthday Robert
Happy Birthday Robby

A bakery basically states that they will put whatever writing they agree to on the cake. There is no list of what they can put on a cake. A really pathetic argument... I'm actually embarrassed for you for even trying to make it...

Public accommodation laws are so vaguely defined that it's amazing to me that they pass challenge in court. If they were clear and equitable, this whole argument would be moot. The problem is that the law isn't applied equitably, it is applied according to who yells the loudest. If a Nazi went into a Kosher Jewish bakery and asked for a cake with "Happy Birthday Hitler!" on it, should the bakery be required by law to provide the cake, since they just produced the exact same cake (white cake with raspberry filling and buttercream frosting) that said "Happy Birthday Hiller!" We have to have an answer to this question in order to apply this law equitably. It's not about how you feel about the person being refused service or the person refusing service, but about the law and making sure that it is applied equitably (with defined areas of latitude when needed).
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Montecresto said:
Here's the problem I have with the poll, you list along with gays, Hitler and the KKK. Being gay harms NO ONE.
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Hitler is dead, so he can't harm anyone.Making a cake for him does not harm anyone.
The KKK is no longer a terrorist organization so they can't harm anyone.So selling 4x4 lumber and gas cans to them would not harm anyone.
In the abortion debate the only side that is harmed is the child in the womb.So making pro-life pamphlets would not harm anyone.
Advocating for 2nd amendment rights does not harm anyone so a NRA convention would not harm anyone.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Dovkan said:
:applaud Hitler is dead? No way! :Kappa:
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Thanks, Obama!
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

faithful_servant said:
So if you refused to serve a Nazi a Happy Birthday Hitler cake, that would make you a bigot???
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Everyone knows Nazis hate birthday cake, so your question is invalid.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

joG said:
First of all, it might be interesting to note that companies do not have a conscience. The owner and the people working there do. So the question should rightly be, whether a citizen may be forced to act against her conscience.
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The company is property of the person who owns it. I could have asked "Should a person be forced to sell or rent his property and or services to groups or individuals or groups whose views go against their religious values or conscience. "But I would not have been able to squeeze all that in poll options.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Bob Blaylock said:
The only one where I did not vote was the black hardware store owner selling lumber and gas cans to the KKK. This is different from all the other situations, inasmuch as it simply presumes someone walking in off the street into a store, and buying generic merchandise that the store has in stock for sale. The store owner wouldn't even have reason to know or care what the affiliation is of the customer, nor what he intended to do with the items he was purchasing. Barring any clear evidence to the contrary, the store owner should just presume that the customer wants to build something with that lumber, and the gas cans to carry gasoline to be used as fuel for vehicles or equipment.

In every other case, we are talking about a merchant being asked to provide goods or services that are specifically in support of something that that merchant opposes. I do not believe it is ever justifiable to use the force of law to compel this of anyone.
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The poll option assumes that the black hardware store owner does know that the person walking in his store is a KKK member. Maybe the guy walked into the store wearing sheets and a hood, maybe he asked the hardware store owner what type of lumber would be ideal for making a cross that will be later lit on fire at a klan rally or some other thing to indicate that he is a member of the KKK.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

jamesrage said:
Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
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The problem with your poll is that you're comparing apples and oranges. Membership in Nazi/KKK/NRA/whatever groups is a CHOICE. Being gay is not a choice - it's a BIOLOGICAL trait, something you're born with.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Paschendale said:
In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea.
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Gay marriage is in idea that many people do not wish to promulgate.
The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone.
The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone.
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The christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant won't cater a gay wedding for anyone.

The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations.
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Organizations are made up of people. A wedding is an organization of people. So discriminating against a group of people because you do not like their pro-life or pro-2nd amendment views is no different than discriminating against group of people because you do not like their views on marriage.

As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.
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Gay marriage is an idea not a person.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

jamesrage said:
Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
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And one more thing - what religion requires its adherents to open stores at all? If a religion says "don't do business with such and such a group", then don't have that kind of business to begin with. For instance, my own religion forbids gay marriage...but there is NOTHING in the Bible that says, "Don't do business with gay people". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we must not do business with sinners in general. So if I had a bakery, sure, I'd bake them that cake - it's their money, and the fact that I'm selling that cake to them is no more supportive of gay marriage than selling guns is supportive of murder.

In other words, the ones who are refusing to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple because of their "Christian" beliefs need to go back and learn what the Bible does say...and what the Bible does not say.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

Glen Contrarian said:
The problem with your poll is that you're comparing apples and oranges. Membership in Nazi/KKK/NRA/whatever groups is a CHOICE. Being gay is not a choice - it's a BIOLOGICAL trait, something you're born with.
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Getting married is a choice.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

jamesrage said:
Gay marriage is in idea that many people do not wish to promulgate.

The christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant won't cater a gay wedding for anyone.

Organizations are made up of people. A wedding is an organization of people. So discriminating against a group of people because you do not like their pro-life or pro-2nd amendment views is no different than discriminating against group of people because you do not like their views on marriage.

Gay marriage is an idea not a person.
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There is no difference between a "gay" marriage and a marriage besides the genders of the people involved. You are discriminating against people based merely on their sexuality. I understand if some really evil people don't want to perpetuate the idea that we should all respect and love each other, regardless of stupid crap like being grossed out by anal sex, but I'd like to think that we don't make laws based on the wishes of really evil people.

Public accommodation laws don't deal with contracts between businesses, which is what dealing with an organization like the KKK or NRA would fall under. You can't deny service to a member of such a group who walks into your store, but organizations don't go to stores. Laws are a lot more complicated than "my pet causes aren't getting special treatment so... discrimination!!"
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

jamesrage said:
Getting married is a choice.
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Then they should refuse all marriages - you can't say "well, these marriages are okay, but not those other ones". It's not right to agree to refuse to sell a product to someone based on choices that are a direct result of that customer's biological traits.

When you finally grasp the idea that YES, homosexuality is something that people are BORN with (if to differing degrees), then you'll finally find yourself on the road out of the conservative echo chamber.
 
Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

jamesrage said:
Hitler is dead, so he can't harm anyone.Making a cake for him does not harm anyone.
The KKK is no longer a terrorist organization so they can't harm anyone.So selling 4x4 lumber and gas cans to them would not harm anyone.
In the abortion debate the only side that is harmed is the child in the womb.So making pro-life pamphlets would not harm anyone.
Advocating for 2nd amendment rights does not harm anyone so a NRA convention would not harm anyone.
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I think you were listing the KKK and Hitler because of the offense to sensibilities due to the violent nature and history to the two. Both being behavioural choices. How is it that being born gay, or black or a female can be offensive?
 
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