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Big govt. Most of the choices listed are simply the symptoms.
Lol. Christian fingerprints are all over slavery.
Historically, slavery was not just an Old Testament phenomenon. Slavery was practiced in every ancient Western culture: Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman and Israelite. Slavery was an integral part of ancient commerce, taxation, and temple religion.
In the book of Genesis, Noah condemns Ham and his descendents to perpetual servitude: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers" (Gn 9:25). T. David Curp notes that this episode has been used to justify racialized slavery, since "Christians and even some Muslims eventually identified Ham's descendents as black Africans".[5] Anthony Pagden argued that "This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument—rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science—why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another."[6]
Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But the question was the most contentious, not the most serious or most destructive.Big govt. Most of the choices listed are simply the symptoms.
Lol. Christian fingerprints are all over slavery.
Historically, slavery ...
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3
1843: "In 1843, 1,200 Methodist ministers owned 1,500 slaves, and 25,000 members owned 208,000 slaves...the Methodist Church as a whole remained silent and neutral on the issue of slavery." 5
1844: The General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church split into two conferences because of tensions over slavery and the power of bishops in the denomination. The two General Conferences, the Methodist Episcopal Church (North) and Methodist Episcopal church, South remained separate until a merger in 1939 created the Methodist Church. The latter became the present United Methodist Church as a result of subsequent mergers. 6
<SNIP>
Highlights of the abolition process from 1860 until now:
1860: Ministers and laity of the Methodist Episcopal Church's Genesee Conference in western New York state were expelled from the church for insubordination. They left to form the Free Methodist Church of North America. They split over a variety of factors, including theological disagreements, the perceived worldliness of the original church, and slavery. Their leader "...Roberts and most of his followers were radical abolitionists in the years immediately prior to the Civil War, at a time when many within the Methodist Episcopal church were hesitant in their condemnation of the practice of slavery." The denomination continues today in the U.S., Canada and in countries around the world. 1
1861: The Presbyterians had been able to remain united in spite of tensions created by the slavery issue. Shortly after the Civil War began, the Southern presbyteries of the United Presbyterian Church in the United States of America withdrew and organized the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States (later renamed the Presbyterian Church in the United States). The split was healed in 1983 with the unification of these two bodies and the creation of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).
1861-1865: The Civil War (a.k.a. the war between the states) was fought, resulting in the greatest loss of life of any American war.
1862-DEC-31: President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on JAN-1. This is believed by many to have freed the slaves. Actually, it did not free a single slave. People in the Northern states who had been slaves had already been freed. Slaves in the South were within the Confederacy, and thus immune to Union proclamations. Still, it was of enormous symbolic significance
I find it interesting that you do not see the natural contradiction between those two statements. Slavery was ubiquitous, and timeless, and therefore the responsibility of the one belief system that decided to end it.
I'm not sure what you think that you're demonstrating here, other than people who materially benefited from slavery sought reasons for defending their actions...
...which they would not have had to do in any other culture.
I quoted that to demonstrate that EVERYBODY was doing it, and from the very beginning that the Christian church capitalised on its benefits as well, and had the "holy scripture" as justification.
As pointed out earlier, it wasn't until about 1980 that the Mormon church, under societal pressure and stagnation discontinued the teaching of the curse on black people as a heritage from Ham
Also that teaching, along with the biblical endorsement of slavery further illustrates the bibles fallacy.
To the second quote, yes Christians used their own scripture to justify centuries of humanitarian abuse
And you're still repeating the falsehood that slavery was ended by Christianity.
While there were certainly Christians in the charge, they weren't alone, and by the time it came to a head in America, it had long been outlawed elsewhere anyway
and it took a very bloody uncivil war, which was very supported by Christians, to end the institution.
But the question was the most contentious, not the most serious or most destructive.
Not only was everyone doing it, everyone had been doing it since time immemorial and no one saw anything odd about it. Except Christians, who from the very beginning first demanded that it's abuses be ended, and finally, demanded that the institution itself be ended. You only get the idea that we should get rid of Slavery from Christianity, and you had it there from the Early Church. That Christians chose not to follow the teachings of the New Testament in slave trading and abusing slaves does not alter that basic historical fact.
:shrug: I could care less about Mormon theology. We are talking about Christianity.
Not really. It illustrates that it is not written to conform to 21st Century Western proprieties.
:shrug: Sure. And the Westboro people tried to use it to justify hatred of the military who defended (among other things) gay rights. Again, I'm not sure what point you think you are making here.
that is because - historically - it was. The Abolition movement as formed was explicitly Christian in nature and leadership. Its opponents accused it of violating the separation of Church and State. It forced several denominations to split. William Wilberforce, John Brown, Harriet Beecher Stowe, John Woolman, John Wesley, all of them were pretty open about the fact that they were motivated to end Slavery because they felt it was Gods' will.
The Christian arguments (all men are equal, all men should serve each other rather than seek to be served, slave trading is sinful) about mankind are the necessary precursors to the decision that slavery must therefore be stamped out.
Sure. In Britain. By guess who?
Sure. Again, you are still failing to make the point that I think you think you are making.
You're arguing in your same old circle. Christianity's involvement in eventual abolition doesn't excuse its eighteen centuries of the humanitarian failure of using slavery as a mechanism of prosperity.
And further excusing it by suggesting that because everybody was doing it, Christianity didn't recognise the institutional horror, when they were suppose to be gods gift to humanity
carrying the gospel to the world, which obviously couldn't have included slavery. Eighteen centuries to figure out that it needed to be stamped out, really. Sure isn't anything unique.
:shrug: what other major culture did it?
Zoroastrians banned slavery almost a thousand years before the OT was even recorded by scribes.
Slaves were emancipated in China in 1730.
Sure. And Christians involving themselves in the Slave Trade does not change the historical fact that the Abolitionist movement originated in Christianity, and was built on Christian principles.
No - Christ was Gods' gift to humanity. Christians are those portions of humanity that recognize that we are such failures that we are left utterly reliant on a Savior. And Christians recognized (and in the New Testament, are ordered to correct) the potential institutional horrors from day 1.
:shrug: what other major culture did it?
Amerika is so far gone that there is no saving the nation we once knew from our founding. So what's the point of squabbling over minutia when the ship is foundered to the point that it can't be saved??
With no rule of law to constrain the government - how can liberty survive?? The answer is, of course it can't survive - yet, no one wants to talk about it... it's more titillating to get all worked up over abortion and gay marriage.
Amerika abandoned the rule of law decades ago, and with it abandoned republican government in favor of "democracy"... we are now dying the death that every democracy in history has died. As James Madison observed, there has never been a democracy in history that did not commit suicide - violent in their deaths.
Amerikans have been made completely ignorant of history, the principles of freedom, and the ability to rationally sift their way thru the chaff of misinformation that they are daily bombarded with. We are in debt to the tune of over 100% of GDP, we are engaged in perpetual war, our government brazenly operates outside the bounds of the Constitution - and the masses cheer them on, many states and municipalities are on the road to bankruptcy, our currency is being devalued by the second, on and on...
It's a sinking ship - a fast sinking ship, and there's no saving her. The Establishment manuevered us into this straight jacket for very logical reasons, and when they eventually pull the plug on the economy, and on the dollar, the jig will be up. Then of course, those who created the problems to begin with, will be Johnny on the spot with their "solutions".
Of course those solutions will be tainted in such a way as to afford the Establishment complete control of the government, and the government complete control of the people.
It's the same old story throughout history - over and over again, going back millenia. Too bad Amerikans weren't exposed to these history lessons in the government schools they attended
Your deliberate misspelling of "America" is irritating, undoubtedly also deliberately so. It inspired me to scroll through and to say: tl;dr.
Spelling America with a 'k' denotes a post-constitutional Amerika.
When I was young and naive I loved my country, and believed we were the bulwark against "the evil empire", but decades of reading and observing have opened my eyes to what a lie that is.
Amerika is the most imperialistic, terroristic, duplicitous, warmongering nation on earth. The rest of the world hates Amerika - with very good reason.
Still you're circular argument. Christianity doesn't get any brownie points for ceasing bad behavior, something that the true religion should have known all along, lol. Without Christians taking that gospel message to the world, the world would be unaware of that two thousand year aged mythical figure. There's nothing unique, or credit worthy.
....
I did It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know - there was an anti-slavery bias in Christianity (and no other faith or belief system) from:
.....
New International Version
for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
New Living Translation
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching
English Standard Version
the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
New American Standard Bible
and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
King James Bible
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching
International Standard Version
for those involved in sexual immorality, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for false witnesses, and for whatever else goes against the healthy teaching
NET Bible
sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers--in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For fornicators, for males who lie down with males, for kidnappers of free men, for liars, for oath breakers and for all things opposed to the sound teaching
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Laws are intended for people involved in sexual sins, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for those who lie when they take an oath, and for whatever else is against accurate teachings.
Jubilee Bible 2000
for fornicators, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
King James 2000 Bible
For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
American King James Version
For fornicators, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for enslavers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
American Standard Version
for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
Douay-Rheims Bible
For fornicators, for them who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine,
Darby Bible Translation
fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers; and if any other thing is opposed to sound teaching,
English Revised Version
for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
Webster's Bible Translation
For lewd persons, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Weymouth New Testament
fornicators, sodomites, slave-dealers, liars and false witnesses; and for whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching
World English Bible
for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
Young's Literal Translation
whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,
If I was to pay for your airfare out of this nation, would you accept? I certainly dont want you to have to suffer in such a bad place.
Still you're circular argument. Christianity doesn't get any brownie points for ceasing bad behavior, something that the true religion should have known all along, lol.
After the collapse there will be nowhere to run... in the 1930's German citizens were able to flee to America and other countries, but the world being made into a global prison - or at least that is the goal of the Establishment.
If you don't understand that liberty in America is being systematically dismantled; and that a fascist police state is being fastened upon us, then you aren't paying attention and don't understand history, human nature, or power.
What is happening to America is nothing new - it is history repeated.
If you really are a conservative, you should be first and foremost an advocate of liberty - yet most conservatives have morphed into neo-cons and are more akin to fascists, imperialistic fascists at that.
I am an advocate of republican government, private property, and personal liberty - few Americans can abide by those simple social foundations anymore.