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Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If the objection was to homosexuality then it should not be limited to wedding day service. The idea that supplying goods/services to sinners is participating in a sin is quite a stretch.

Yes. It's also a strawman. No one is saying "we don't want to serve sinners". In the Christian worldview, that would mean zero customers, up to and including the business owner. We are saying "we will not take part in activities that violate our faith."

Goshin put it well, as he usually does.


To build on his example:

Goshin said:
Say the rep for the Local Swingers 101 Club came by my restaurant, and said his group was having a big three-day event at a local hotel, featuring spouse-swapping and an orgy, and wanted my restaurant to cater and serve at the event.

Biblically, that's a sin... I'd want the right to refuse service on that basis.

If, however, the Local Swingers 101 Rep came by the restaurant, sat down at a table, and ordered the New York Strip with a fully-loaded potato (for some reason, Goshin strikes me as a steak and potatoes kind of guy), Goshin would serve him as readily as any of his other guests. It's not the identity - it's the activity.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

3.) what does this mean, were people not spiritual in you grandparents day? they were so what does this mean

It means that when people have a genuine spiritual experience they will love God with all of the heart, mind and soul. As a result of this love of God they will truly love their fellow man so much that they will actually they will naturally turn the other cheek if someone else delivers a blow, go the extra mile of someone else makes them go one, and beg for forgiveness on behalf of someone who might be doing something so extreme as killing them by nailing them to a cross. So yes, that spiritual experience would make them not want to discriminate against someone else in their place of business based on their sexual orientation. It simply won't be in their heart to do such a thing. So that is the real solution. Everything else is shakey because it depends on mundane, fallible people.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Simple: Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you. Christ got the point. Most so called "Christians" miss it completely.

All Christians miss it at times, none miss it completely.

And if I were trapped in a sin, I would absolutely want my fellow man to A) refuse to enable me in it and B) if possible, try to help me out of it. They would be loving me by doing so.



You are correct (broadly) that Legalism is a temptation for many (not just Christians). You are simply wrong to conflate Legalism with recognizing sinful activity. Legalism is the idea that the path to salvation lies through following the law, usually with gradations of spiritual failure. Christianity teaches that all sin, and all need the redemption purchased by the Blood of Christ - the Doctrine of Sin is not only not legalism, it is a critical part of the rejection of legalism.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If the objection was to homosexuality then it should not be limited to wedding day service. The idea that supplying goods/services to sinners is participating in a sin is quite a stretch.

I strongly disagree. If I were asked to cater a fundraiser for Planned Parenthood, I would be supporting abortion on demand, and this would be a grave hypocrisy.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Simple: Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you. Christ got the point. Most so called "Christians" miss it completely.

I agree.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

So, if two straight people were getting a civil ceremony same sex marriage for tax purposes, that would be objectionable? On religious grounds???

:shrug: Yeah. I wouldn't partake in it. This has actually come up in my life, believe it or not :lol:
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

All Christians miss it at times, none miss it completely.

And if I were trapped in a sin, I would absolutely want my fellow man to A) refuse to enable me in it and B) if possible, try to help me out of it. They would be loving me by doing so.



You are correct (broadly) that Legalism is a temptation for many (not just Christians). You are simply wrong to conflate Legalism with recognizing sinful activity. Legalism is the idea that the path to salvation lies through following the law, usually with gradations of spiritual failure. Christianity teaches that all sin, and all need the redemption purchased by the Blood of Christ - the Doctrine of Sin is not only not legalism, it is a critical part of the rejection of legalism.

The only reason why a person would refuse to serve someone in their place of business based on their sexual orientation is because they are seeing that person based on the bodily concept of life, not on the transcendental platform.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Scenario:

I walk into my favorite restaurant and ask to talk to the owner. I tell him I am hosting a Christian Bible Conference in the Mariott and would like him to cater the event and serve dinner there in the evening.

He looks at me oddly and says "Sorry, I'm a Pastazoroastrian, and we are forbidden to attend or participate in any kind of non-Pastazoroastrid religious activities, so I can't help you."

I'd probably blink a couple times, ask him if he was kidding, and if he assured me he was serious, I'd walk out the door and seek another caterer.


Would I sue to try to MAKE him do it? Um, no. If he really has a reason-of-conscience not to do it, or if he's BSing and just "don't like my kind", either way I don't WANT him catering my event. I certainly don't want to force him... we might all come down with Salmonella or something...
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

The only reason why a person would refuse to serve someone in their place of business based on their sexual orientation is because they are seeing that person based on the bodily concept of life, not on the transcendental platform.

You are raising up a strawman argument. No one is arguing for rejecting service based on identity, but rather activity. Gays, Adulterers, Liars, Lusters, Gluttons, Haters, Thieves, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Asexuals, Semisexuals, Comicon-attending-wish-they-could-be-sexuals, all are free to eat at my restaurant. I'm simply not going to cater your orgy. I'm also not going to cater your KKK meeting.

It's not a question of rejecting identities - it's a question of rejecting activities.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

I strongly disagree. If I were asked to cater a fundraiser for Planned Parenthood, I would be supporting abortion on demand, and this would be a grave hypocrisy.

But would you claim that was execising freedom of religion? Or would it be choosing which group to be affilitated with? Refusing to cater to the Nazi party of America is not discrimination. Refusing to cater to Germans is.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are raising up a strawman argument. No one is arguing for rejecting service based on identity, but rather activity. Gays, Adulterers, Liars, Lusters, Gluttons, Haters, Thieves, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Asexuals, Semisexuals, Comicon-attending-wish-they-could-be-sexuals, all are free to eat at my restaurant. I'm simply not going to cater your orgy. I'm also not going to cater your KKK meeting.

It's not a question of rejecting identities - it's a question of rejecting activities.

So you would not cater to a meeting of liars? Which would mean that you would not cater a meeting of the Republican or Democratic convention, right?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

But would you claim that was execising freedom of religion? Or would it be choosing which group to be affilitated with? Refusing to cater to the Nazi party of America is not discrimination. Refusing to cater to Germans is.

:shrug: if the Germans are having a Nazi rally which I am refusing to cater to, then I'm not refusing to serve Germans, but rather refusing to take part in or affiliate with Nazi rallies.

Similarly, if Homosexuals are having a wedding celebration which I am refusing to cater to, then I am not refusing to serve Homosexuals, but rather refusing to take part in or affiliate with their weddings.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

So you would not cater to a meeting of liars? Which would mean that you would not cater a meeting of the Republican or Democratic convention, right?

:lol: I like it :) But I think you should have gone with "Lawyers" or "anyone who files federal tax forms" :D


But no. If the purpose of the activity is to celebrate, enable, or achieve something that is a violation of my faith, I will refuse the custom and give up the profit to serve God before I serve money.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

:lol: I like it :) But I think you should have gone with "Lawyers" or "anyone who files federal tax forms" :D

We can go there too. If you are really basing it on activity then you would not cater to liars. Therefore what is really going on is that people are engaging in such discrimination simply because they are seeing those people based on the bodily conception of life.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

So you would not cater to a meeting of liars? Which would mean that you would not cater a meeting of the Republican or Democratic convention, right?



BWAHAHAHAHAHA!


Oh I must admit, that is a good one.

:D
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

We can go there too. If you are really basing it on activity then you would not cater to liars.

That is incorrect. Everyone is a liar. I would not cater to (for example) events designed to teach people how to lie to their spouse without getting caught. But I would be fine catering to liars who (for example) were throwing a super bowl party.

Remember that it's not the Identity - it's the Activity.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

That is incorrect. Everyone is a liar. I would not cater to (for example) events designed to teach people how to lie to their spouse without getting caught.

Remember that it's not the Identity - it's the Activity.

And here's what the Bible says about liars

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So lying is ok, but homosexuality is not ok. That is not how it works.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

It has to do with having to actively participate in something one considers a sin, or actively help celebrate something the Bible teaches is a sin.

For instance, if I owned a restaurant, and some guy walks in and says 'Hey, I'm a married man having an affair, and I want to celebrate my adultery with a wild swingers party. I want your restaurant to cater the party."

I'd want the right to refuse to engage in an activity (catering his adultery party) celebrating a sinful activity (adultery).

Now granted, the above scenario is highly improbable. Let's re-frame that...

Say the rep for the Local Swingers 101 Club came by my restaurant, and said his group was having a big three-day event at a local hotel, featuring spouse-swapping and an orgy, and wanted my restaurant to cater and serve at the event.

Biblically, that's a sin... I'd want the right to refuse service on that basis. (Frankly, I'd want the right to refuse service anyway because it is icky and objectionable and I don't want me or my employees exposed to that kind of environment!)


Many conservative Christians would view being asked to cater/serve at a gay wedding in much the same light: being asked to help celebrate something sinful.


Getting the picture better now?

And this is why more and more people are turning to atheism or alternative religions. Here we have an example of a non-bigoted Christian (I assume) making excuses and essentially apologizing for the conduct of bad Christians.

Guess what? Many Christians have come to accept the fact that gays CANNOT CHANGE THEIR NATURE, and thus it would be morally criminal to condemn them both in this life and the next. You can either join the revolution or be stuck playing clean up for the bigoted Christians of yesteryear.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Serious question man. I'm catholic, & we had one of these Priest at our church. Plus the hypocrisy of these people is unreal. I could see them being OK with it because he's a Priest

What happened in the past was not right. I am not RCC myself.
Hope the prick went to jail
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

And this is why more and more people are turning to atheism or alternative religions. Here we have an example of a non-bigoted Christian (I assume) making excuses and essentially apologizing for the conduct of bad Christians.

Guess what? Many Christians have come to accept the fact that gays CANNOT CHANGE THEIR NATURE, and thus it would be morally criminal to condemn them both in this life and the next. You can either join the revolution or be stuck playing clean up for the bigoted Christians of yesteryear.



For a devout Christian, someone who actually believes, it is a bit more complicated than that.

Being asked to choose between joining a popular trend and being right in God's eyes is easy... the devout person wants to be right with God.


Then yes, there's the whole inborn/innate orientation question... that one has been argued extensively on DP, no point in derailing the thread with a long dissertation on it.
There's the question of practicing vs celibate homosexuals, which is considered important by some denominations.
There are the arguments that NT references to homosexuality referred to temple prostitution, pederasty and involuntary circumstances and not to committed and loving relationships, which remains highly controversial in Christiandom.

Then there's the question of whether, when told by the law we must cater to things we fear are sinful, whether we should obey the law of man or risk displeasing God.


Mere popularity, or being in line with current social trends, is not really a concern to the devout in comparison.


Personally I am beset with some uncertainty on some of these questions myself... but I certainly will not condemn those whose conscience tells them they should not participate in such things. It isn't about hate (at least, not for most I believe), it is about being forced to participate in things one's conscience says are wrong.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Oh ****, you believe that fairy tale ****, lol.

I'd ask you to prove that but you'll just fall out here with another sophomoric rant.

So just let it be said that I have the multiple, historical accounts and you have nothing but hot air denials.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

For a devout Christian, someone who actually believes, it is a bit more complicated than that.

Being asked to choose between joining a popular trend and being right in God's eyes is easy... the devout person wants to be right with God.


Then yes, there's the whole inborn/innate orientation question... that one has been argued extensively on DP, no point in derailing the thread with a long dissertation on it.
There's the question of practicing vs celibate homosexuals, which is considered important by some denominations.
There are the arguments that NT references to homosexuality referred to temple prostitution, pederasty and involuntary circumstances and not to committed and loving relationships, which remains highly controversial in Christiandom.

Then there's the question of whether, when told by the law we must cater to things we fear are sinful, whether we should obey the law of man or risk displeasing God.


Mere popularity, or being in line with current social trends, is not really a concern to the devout in comparison.


Personally I am beset with some uncertainty on some of these questions myself... but I certainly will not condemn those whose conscience tells them they should not participate in such things. It isn't about hate (at least, not for most I believe), it is about being forced to participate in things one's conscience says are wrong.

Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love. Many gay people commit suicide in an effort to conform to non-gay/Christian standards.

It simply seems like punching down.

As an atheist, I have committed the most grievous sin of Christianity. I would never be denied service in America if I decided to celebrate an atheist wedding.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Well, Jesus was a progressive and a reformer (of his own religion) and had an evolving opinion about many social issues.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that spoke about him. He was the true fulfillment of OT Judaism.

And Jesus was no liberal.

Was Jesus a liberal? « The Righter Report

And since Jesus set up the laws by which people are governed, it makes sense that he has since evolved on gay issues.

There's no evidence of that in scripture.

Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and he’s the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.

It’s also worth noting that Jesus didn’t mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

Does he still command that children be put to death for being disobedient? Of course not.

Capital punishment in the New Testament is either by God (Acts 5, etc.,) or government (Romans 13).
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love. Many gay people commit suicide in an effort to conform to non-gay/Christian standards.

It simply seems like punching down.

As an atheist, I have committed the most grievous sin of Christianity. I would never be denied service in America if I decided to celebrate an atheist wedding.


Well, for instance, if you went to a church and asked to have a wedding there, and then asserted that it was going to be an "atheist wedding" and demanded no mention of God, etc.... they'd probably decline to host your wedding.


Now, as for gays, I hear what you're saying. Personally, I've known some gay people, including a couple I considered friends. I made every effort to treat them like I would anyone else. Certainly I had no wish to be mean to them, or treat them badly. I did favors for them at times as I would any other person, like a ride to work when the car was in the shop, that sort of thing.

Fortunately, they didn't ask me to put my stamp of approval on their lifestyle, nor did they ask me to participate in any kind of distinctly gay activities like a gay wedding... I would have declined to do so, as politely as possible.


I think that part of the problem here is making a distinction between being NICE to gay people, and the issue of declining to PARTICIPATE in activities that are complicit in what is seen as sinful.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love.

So you would feel right at home with Hitler and Pol Pot and Gayce running loose in heaven for eternity?

Love does not rejoice in iniquity (1 Corinthians 13).

If gays (and heterosexual sinners) want eternal love and peace then they need to repent of their sins and receive Christ for salvation.
 
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