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Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

I did say that the Catholic Church still does not marry adulterers.

But all of them marry fornicators.

There is no Biblical rule against marrying fornicators in the Bible and circumstantially marriage is required.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Except you're telling the gay couple to not even be a couple, which is nothing compared to adultery

Biblical doctrine does not prohibit a gay couple being a couple. Nor do many Christian denominations. The only prohibition they have is against homosexual sex. The latest position of most anti-SSM Christian denominations is that being gay isn't sinful, but homosexual sex is. It is, specifically, the sexual act itself that is the sin.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

i take this as a sign since we may do what we want that you will stop crawling into S&S to condemn everyone

Sorry, chromium, I don't buy into your tacky rants.

If people wind up in Hell it will be on them and nobody else.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Well it's not as of yet. It took christianity 1700 years to reach that point, so maybe islam will by the year 2400

And yeah it does hurt christianity, for the same reason you mention - recruitment is down. Young people have left the church in droves, in large part (though often not the only reason) because of homophobia

It could be argued the exact opposite - that church participation is declining because churches are dropping their standards. If a Christian Church won't stick to Christian doctrine, what's the point?

As for church participation and membership, it is the mainstream churches that have very soft, nice social sermons avoiding topics of sin that are declining. The churches that are booming are the fundamentalist and moralistic independent denominations. Because they tend to be independent counting their numbers is all but impossible as there is no federal registry of church participants. However those are the churches that thousands attend and tens to hundreds of thousands religiously watch on TV and contribute to.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Sorry, chromium, I don't buy into your tacky rants.

If people wind up in Hell it will be on them and nobody else.

The only person YOU can condemn to hell is yourself. You don't actually read the Bible much, do you?:roll:
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

It could be argued the exact opposite - that church participation is declining because churches are dropping their standards. If a Christian Church won't stick to Christian doctrine, what's the point?

As for church participation and membership, it is the mainstream churches that have very soft, nice social sermons avoiding topics of sin that are declining. The churches that are booming are the fundamentalist and moralistic independent denominations. Because they tend to be independent counting their numbers is all but impossible as there is no federal registry of church participants. However those are the churches that thousands attend and tens to hundreds of thousands religiously watch on TV and contribute to.

i doubt it since it's participation among the young that's hemorrhaging. The young simply have different values than the church and their elders and it's only going to get worse (from religion's pov). Look at scandinavia to see what's in store for the church in 20 years. My swedish friend says the only churches left basically are abandoned
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.

You are mistaken. I do not at all approve of having Saudi as our 'ally,' for how they treat women, gays, and yes, religious minorities. But i have a lot more influence over the oppression sought by christians in this country than i do saudi arabia or iran
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Biblical doctrine does not prohibit a gay couple being a couple. Nor do many Christian denominations. The only prohibition they have is against homosexual sex. The latest position of most anti-SSM Christian denominations is that being gay isn't sinful, but homosexual sex is. It is, specifically, the sexual act itself that is the sin.

Yes? An adulterer has their spouse at least to satisfy themselves, or they can divorce and remarry, like one of my uncles has done 3x. The options for homosexuals is nothing by comparison and since like 98-99% of them are not lifelong celibate, this a pretty worthless distinction you're making. A gay couple is not going to be celibate, unless they're in the nursing home
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

i doubt it since it's participation among the young that's hemorrhaging. The young simply have different values than the church and their elders and it's only going to get worse (from religion's pov). Look at scandinavia to see what's in store for the church in 20 years. My swedish friend says the only churches left basically are abandoned

You aren't claiming the churches in Sweden are more anti-gay than in the USA are you - and THAT is why churches are basically abandoned? Christianity in Europe mostly died away LONG before gay rights came along.

What has changes is that the media and virtually all social presentations are either devoid of religion or portray religious people as crazy, stupid and often psychotic murderers. Sitcoms have defined that a mere first kiss will end up with the couple in bed as do movies, and sound laugh tracks played often in such situations. There is essentially no longer any media or social support of religion or its principles - rather nearly only condemnations, ridicule, hate and fear of religious people.

I do not believe declining church attendance has one iota to do with gay rights or SSM. If it did, metaphysical churches, Unitarian Churches and other churches that do not oppose SSM would have full pews, rather than the most empty of all. The Anglican church not only supports SSM, but has openly gay ministers and even bishops. Are their pews filling up? No.

But check out some of the tele-evangelists who curse homosexuality - and the thousands that attend their churches.

What is dying is mainstream middle of the road traditional denominations. But, then, what do that offer? An upbeat sermon that has a nice platitude and a potluck lunch once a month after services? What do they even stand for anymore? Be happy and be nice? If nothing else they are incredibly boring services of bad music, shallow sermons and avoiding religious controversial issues. Why go? So people don't.

If pro-gay marriage denominations were growing over those that aren't, you'd have a point. But it is the fundamentalists and social rightwing independent churches that are have the huge numbers.

What I see happening is the non-devoted Christians are just dropping out - so increasingly a person is going to be either non-religious/anti-religion OR militantly high devoted. It is the passive middle that is fading away. The majority? Definitely will be non-religious. But those highly devoted and highly spiritual will continue to be so. Everything isn't determined by what young people do. Most young people are liberal. Many of them become conservative down the road.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are mistaken. I do not at all approve of having Saudi as our 'ally,' for how they treat women, gays, and yes, religious minorities. But i have a lot more influence over the oppression sought by christians in this country than i do saudi arabia or iran

Do you REALLY believe you have ANY influence by what you post on this forum? Seriously you think that?

Of the various reasons to post can be included speaking your mind just to do so. But changing anything???

Of the many effects of the Internet, one of those has to be to eliminate most social and political activism. Don't like a war? Don't protest. Don't get out and go door to door in a political effort or campaign. Just bitch on the Internet about it, which accomplishes absolutely nothing.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You aren't claiming the churches in Sweden are more anti-gay than in the USA are you - and THAT is why churches are basically abandoned? Christianity in Europe mostly died away LONG before gay rights came along.

Gay rights in europe, certainly sweden, took off LONG before it did in america. It's not that europeans in the 1960s didn't want to cling to religion, as their grandparents had; it's that religion did not adapt. Not surprising from an institution that relies completely on an ancient book. Other institutions used to segregate the races and so on but see, they adapt.

I'm talking about a host of issues, from birth control to atheism to recreational drug use to remarriages to gay rights. Church is also boring as **** (texting is frowned upon)

If pro-gay marriage denominations were growing over those that aren't, you'd have a point.

This bring me to my 2nd point, which is that religion *cannot* plausibly adapt. It's not just that it refuses to. Do you think someone who is gay and has been dragged to church since age 4-5 won't agonize over it to find another church? But i don't see much in any holy text that is gay friendly. Some can create a dissonance whereby religion is compatible with gay rights or birth control. Most will concede that they are not compatible, or they've been directly harmed by religion or seen their friends harmed, families torn apart, and they drop religion altogether.

I see unitarian church and so on as more of a place for those who can't let go
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.

Well we could just lump both the Muslims and Christians together and say Muslo-Christian. Is that what you desire? I don't think so.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Edit: Why aren't polls auto-selected on this forum so that people don't accidentally post threads without polls?
Because most threads aren't polls.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Many Christians, certainly on the conservative side, are linking the survival of Christianity to their ability to discriminate against gays. They need to discriminate against gays in order to be true Christians.

No they're not.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

The only person YOU can condemn to hell is yourself. You don't actually read the Bible much, do you?:roll:

Tsk tsk...

I've only been reading it for 40 years, joko. Probably only a novice compared to you, right? LOL.

And as far as salvation goes I've ALREADY crossed over to eternal life in Jesus Christ (John 5:24, etc.).

Also, you might want to think more about what you wrote here:

joko104: Biblical doctrine does not prohibit a gay couple being a couple. Nor do many Christian denominations. The only prohibition they have is against homosexual sex. The latest position of most anti-SSM Christian denominations is that being gay isn't sinful, but homosexual sex is. It is, specifically, the sexual act itself that is the sin.

Because you're only partly right. You'll need to add to that what Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-28 -

Jesus: "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Do you think that kind of a sin is just for heterosexuals? You'd be wrong. If one is gay and one lusts for another gay, whether they're married or not, then they also have sinned. Because it's either fornication or adultery that one is thinking / lusting about. And both are wrong. And don't even try to tell me gays never lust after other people of the same sex.

And now you know the rest of the story.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

No. There is a distinct difference between serving sinners (which we all do) and serving sin. It's not the food (I would equally not wish to serve as a wedding photographer, or as a wedding planner), it's the event (the activity, as we called it at the beginning, though for precision of language we have chosen to more narrowly define it). It's the meaning, the purpose.

There is a difference in the way in which one is implicated if he is serving food at an event that is advocating sin, and if he serves food to people who are engaging in sin at an event that is not directly advocating sin. But but in both cases one is most certainly implicated. The thing is this, if you are serving God you are serving God. If you are serving sinners, you are serving sin. There is no way around it. The bottom line is that it depends on the motivation. One can serve food to people who are advocating sin and engaging in sin, IF AND ONLY IF one is purely motivated to please God by doing it. There cannot be the slightest tinge of self aggrandizement. This is because God can see and understand everything, and for a person whose motive is purely to please God, there is no question of being affected by sin, because God is with such a person. Therefore Jesus said the following

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus would not feed people an event with the motive to make some money so he could enjoy mundane objects, so people could look up to him because of his material possessions, because he wife was nagging him to buy her a fur coat, so that he could afford the company of a beautiful young woman, so that he could buy off a politician, so that he could buy weapons to kill his enemies, so that he could enjoy a vacation, or to stop the bill collectors from harassing him. If he would do such a thing, his motivation for doing so would be merely to glorify God, not for any sort of enjoyment or credit for himself. This is due to Jesus understanding perfectly that everything rests on God's energy, and as such everything is meant for the glorification of God. Mundane people become implicated in sin due to their motivation to glorify and please themselves. Jesus is not implicated in sin because his motivation is always to please God. If one has the slightest motive for self aggrandizement, he is most certainly implicated in sin when he engages in sinful activity or facilitates in any small way sinful activity. This is why Jesus said it is not what goes in that implicates a person in sin, it is actually what is in the person heart, i.e. the motivation that implicates him.

So if you cater to an event, and your motivation is some sort of self aggrandizement in the form profit, fame, adoration, or distinction, then you are certainly implicated in the sin that your catering facilitates in the form of providing energy to people who are engaging in sinful activity. If however your motivation is purely to glorify and serve God, there is no such implication. Jesus said, one cannot serve two masters, because he will either love one and hate the other. So you are either serving and glorifying God in all of your activity or you are serving sin.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

The Anglican Church is the most pro-gay-rights and socially liberal of all major denominations. It also is the most dead and least attended.

Religion isn't a corporate marketing scheme or a partisan political campaign. The more socially correct a religion becomes the more it fades away as irrelevant.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Yes? An adulterer has their spouse at least to satisfy themselves, or they can divorce and remarry, like one of my uncles has done 3x. The options for homosexuals is nothing by comparison and since like 98-99% of them are not lifelong celibate, this a pretty worthless distinction you're making. A gay couple is not going to be celibate, unless they're in the nursing home

...actually, divorce and re-marry is adultery. In that way, a divorcee is not dissimilar, Biblically speaking, from a gay person as having sex in a gay or divorced (even with re-marriage) relationship would be adultery (Mt 5: 31-32)
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Laws are / can be shaky as we have seen them overturned, additions made to, exclusions and on and on.

yes they can, I agree 100% and im not denying that.
I was asking what the solution is.

In this cases there are rights laws and the constitution all supporting something. And it was claimed thats way to shakey and mudane which is just s a very silly claim so i want to know what is a better way.
It Laws, rights and the constitution is not good enough, what then?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

yes they can, I agree 100% and im not denying that.
I was asking what the solution is.

In this cases there are rights laws and the constitution all supporting something. And it was claimed thats way to shakey and mudane which is just s a very silly claim so i want to know what is a better way.
It Laws, rights and the constitution is not good enough, what then?

Nothing when it comes down to it.
But if we really want to clean things up, do what the Romans did - Nominate -now it would be elect a Dictator.
Got to get the right one though.

Roman dictator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Nothing when it comes down to it.
But if we really want to clean things up, do what the Romans did - Nominate -now it would be elect a Dictator.
Got to get the right one though.

Roman dictator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LO no there will never be a dictator in this country and FYI that doesnt make things more solid it makes them even more shakey
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

LO no there will never be a dictator in this country and FYI that doesnt make things more solid it makes them even more shakey

Ahh, having some fun
Best you can get are good laws and a Govt that functions.
Presently, and for decades your country has for the most part been quite dysfunctional at the Federal level.
Open minded and or reasonable discussion is a rarity.
Govt no longer serves the people it serves special interests.
It is Us V Them mentality.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Ahh, having some fun
Best you can get are good laws and a Govt that functions.
Presently, and for decades your country has for the most part been quite dysfunctional at the Federal level.
Open minded and or reasonable discussion is a rarity.
Govt no longer serves the people it serves special interests.
It is Us V Them mentality.

yep thats why I laughed, fun is all good.

while I agree in many ways I think dysfunctional maybe a little strong.

If I had to describe it we are still a mega fast race car, are tranny is just missing a gear, the engine is low on oil and theres 3 monkeys driving.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

...actually, divorce and re-marry is adultery.

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
 
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