Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

Cardinal said:

Okay, you know what? I don't know or even particularly care by what mechanics Africans could or couldn't have made it to America. My only point was that if they had come here voluntarily it would have had a very different outcome. Is that really debatable?



I took the spirit of the OP to be that in this hypothetical parallel history,

blacks faced roughly the same levels of racism and contempt as other immigrant groups coming into the United States.

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History clearly shows that's not true. :roll:

shrubnose said:

blacks faced roughly the same levels of racism and contempt as other immigrant groups coming into the United States.

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History clearly shows that's not true. :roll:

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This morning's newspaper headlines about the Oklahoma frat boys getting caught singing about lynching blacks shows that's not true.

Fenton said:

Clultural influences ? That are derived from Slavery ?

How exactly ?

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More specifically, a lack of cultural influences. When someone immigrates to America by their own volition, they bring their own culture and past with them. It is something they can draw strength and pride from, and they often live in communities with other people of a similar background. They have their past to take pride in, and if they are interested in learning about it, so do their children. If you moved to another country to improve you and your families' prospects for the future, you would likely take deep pride in your country of origin. I'm guessing you're American. In a foreign country, surrounded by unfamiliar people, buildings, and languages, trying your best to hold down a job so you can feed your family, little things from home are very important to your morale. Celebrating a the Fourth of July with your family and a few other Americans in the area, a picture of yourself standing in front of the Washington Monument, a taste of your favorite American beer- any one of those things could be a nostalgic tie to your homeland, that you can hold in your heart when times get rough, and you think to yourself- "I'm gonna get through this. I won't let this get the best of me." And you can pass these cherished memories of your home down to your kids, who might also need something to take pride in if they face adversity.

A slave has nothing but his memories. he can bring nothing with him to this strange new world he didn't choose to come to, and even his name is taken from him. He is left with nothing but stories and songs, but the chances that he will run into another slave that speaks the same language he does is low. The only tie of communication is a foreign language, one he likely lacks the words to translate the history of his people, or even himself with. He has nothing to offer to his children, if he even gets an opportunity to raise them himself. They are born slaves, and can be sold to another at any time, if their master so chooses. Once freed, slaves have nothing tying themselves together, save their history of oppression and similar appearances. Their last names are not even their own. They live in the destitution most would climb out of within a generation because they have nothing to draw courage from. To top it off, right when things start to look up for the blacks willing to rise above their ancestor's troubles, an entitlement culture is formed, leading to a stagnation of all they had been fighting to achieve.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and learned helplessness is the most likely thing to fill the hole when culture is taken from an ethnic group, especially when coupled with the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Goshin said:

You're operating on the assumption that they or their ancestors would have all immigrated here at some point. There is absolutely no reason to assume this. African Americans currently constitute about 11% of the population last time I checked... how many are actual immigrants FROM Africa, or mostly descended from WILLING immigrants from Africa? From what I've seen, I doubt that number is even as high as 1 in 100. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that the vast majority would NOT have immigrated to America from Africa, therefore it is reasonable to assume the vast majority would still be in Africa.... inasumuch as there is ANYTHING resembling reason in this flight of fancy masquerading as a thread.

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The hypothetical question itself operates on the assumption that they or their ancestors would have all immigrated here at some point. Therefore, to address this question, we must also operate from that assumption.

shrubnose said:

History clearly shows that's not true. :roll:

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Read what I wrote. More slowly this time.

shrubnose said:

You are full of it. Africa is full of wheeled vehicles, which are used all over the continent, and have been for a long time.

I don't know what your problem is, but you should deal with it. :roll:

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Tanzania albino boy loses hand in latest attack

The wheel was introduced. Its still very backwards. Did you know that albino's have to live in guarded compounds because people believe their bodies have special powers and try to hack them up?

Infinite Chaos said:

That's just your say so and I've shown that to be based on ignorance of facts.



I've agreed this.



Africa is a place where the oral tradition of storytelling is stronger - it's also however where the first written languages were created.



The relevance is limited. Other technologies existed like smelting in metals etc.



This above does nothing for your position neither is it clear what you're even trying to say.

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This isn't really debatable, Africa is a primitive continent. What advances there are came from the outside. American blacks who's ancestors were slaves benefitted from coming here.

Many poor Asians came here and to South America in the 19th C as Indentured workers/Railway 'slaves'.
As recently as WWII, Japanese Americans were Interned in Prison camps, and Lost Everything.

YET, they and other East Asians, are at the Top of the heap in IQ, Academics, and Income, and have the LowEst crime rates, even in poverty.
Blacks have 7x the White Crime Rate: Asians 1/4 of the white Crime rate.

It's all about Evolution/Genetics. Yes, the very Un-PC 'Race.'

Prof. Philippe Rushton - "Latest Research on Race"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM


PS: The OP poll has Ridiculous Premise and qualification.

US Conservative said:

This isn't really debatable, Africa is a primitive continent. What advances there are came from the outside. American blacks who's ancestors were slaves benefitted from coming here.

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I read somewhere that humans were developed down there. Weren't they?

Lovebug said:

Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
Why is it that an immigrant from the Ukraine or Vietnam or China, coming here with only a few $ in their pockets, work their arses off and make something of themselves? Are they more privileged than any American citizen? Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
Please don't cry me a river. I have been there and done that and know first hand what is possible. I also know that it is so much easier to sit at home, text a bit and bitch about what others owe you.

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This is one of the points that always shoots a hole in the lefts arguments. Asians come to the US and within a generation outperform white Americans, where's the racism?

And then theres the fact that african immigrants outperform african americans.

Are we to believe that "whitey" somehow is racist against American blacks but not black africans or asians?

The metrics for success-value on education, assimilation, marriage-those are what matter. Different groups behave differently but the groups that value those things will always do well.

mbig said:

Many poor Asians came here and to South America in the 19th C as Indentured workers/Railway 'slaves'.
As recently as WWII, Japanese Americans were Interned in Prison camps, and Lost Everything.

YET, they and other East Asians, are at the Top of the heap in Academics and Income, and have the LowEst crime rates, even in poverty.
Blacks have 7x the White Crime Rate: Asians 1/4 of the white Crime rate.

It's all about Evolution/Genetics. Yes, the very Un-PC 'Race.'

Prof. Philippe Rushton - "Latest Research on Race"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mgrTGeDPM


PS: The OP poll has Ridiculous Premise and qualification.

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Not addressing the fact that your comparisons are historically invalid, what is your position, then? That if Africans had immigrated here of their own volition they would end up with the same demographics they have now?

joG said:

I read somewhere that humans were developed down there. Weren't they?

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"Developed" is an interesting word choice. But all man is believed to have originated in Africa.

Cardinal said:

Not addressing the fact that your comparisons are historically invalid, what is your position, then? That if Africans had immigrated here of their own volition they would end up with the same demographics they have now?

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I believe he's saying that intelligence has a direct impact on the success of a group. Different groups act differently-its no surprise there are differences in outcome.

Tragically, the progressives in this nation very much believed blacks to be inferior, and in fact advanced racist laws and even were proponents of eugenics. They were even Hitler fan boys until he dared to attack Stalin.

US Conservative said:

"Developed" is an interesting word choice. But all man is believed to have originated in Africa.

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Evolution is quite an intelligent designer and seems to have lived in Africa for this development project.

joG said:

I read somewhere that humans were developed down there. Weren't they?

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Which might very well play into why we have done so well everywhere else.

Human beings are an "invasive species" on basically every continent but Africa. Living in environments where everything wasn't specifically adapted to kill them very likely gave non-Africans more breathing room to expand their populations and reap the socio-economic and technological developments that went along with that state of affairs.

Most Africans didn't really have that opportunity.

I havent read the entire thread yet and can only imagine the racist cluster**** it is.

However I think that just like any other people from other countries looking for a better life, they would have come here. And been subjected to the same prejudices and barriers that Italians, Irish, Poles, Chinese, etc. suffered until they also were assimilated into our culture. Would their skin color have been a bigger hurdle to overcome? Probably unfortunately.



If my presumption of cluster**** is wrong, I apologize in advance.

Goshin said:

To expand on this, most US industrial development took place in the North where there was no institution of slavery. Most westward expansion was fueled by cheap Chinese and Irish immigrant labor, and much of it occurred after 1865.

Africa, however, has pretty much always been a mess on the whole, and remains so today even though Africa is almost entirely run by Africans now. There is no reason to assume that Africa would have developed an advanced culture on its own.

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Much of 'the mess' in Africa is due to European, Asian (Arab and Indian primarily), and American colonialism. There is no reason to assume Africa would not have developed an advanced culture on it's own. It had several localized ones in the past. Would you say the same about South America?They never would have 'developed an advanced culture?' The Inca's had an advanced civilization, even tho they never had the wheel.

Cardinal said:

Not addressing the fact that your comparisons are historically invalid,

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They certainly aren't airtight, but are still useful for comparison.
Certainly many Asians overcame arriving here at a Huge DISadvantage (even more recently), and even rose above the Host population/'race.'

Cardinal said:

what is your position, then? That if Africans had immigrated here of their own volition they would end up with the same demographics they have now?

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I find the OP Poll ridiculous.
Until Recently, Blacks ONLY came here because OF Slavery ..starting in the 17th C.

They were in NO position TO come here (or even know of us) any more than other Primitive cultures, such as New Guinean or Amazonian Tribesman.
It's an absurd Poll.

BUT, bowing to the Nonsense/impossible question/conditions of the Poll - whose Abusive intimated POINT (like so many here) is that "Slavery is still the Main reason for Black Lack of Achievement and horrible state"....
They Would have been better off coming here by choice... BUT of course they would NOT have in any significant number.
AND, as my Imperfect example amply demonstrates, they have had plenty of time to overcome that.

and lets be clear...
Just as the OP, you are trying to "play Prosecutor" and get a "Yes" or "No" ONLY answer to a question that needs at least as much qualification as the OP gave To the 'poll'.
(again, so many are abusively Framed in this section)

Too bad you simply aren't adept enough to corner me into that unqualified Yes/No, nor answer the Gist of My pointS.

Lursa said:

Much of 'the mess' in Africa is due to European, Asian (Arab and Indian primarily), and American colonialism. There is no reason to assume Africa would not have developed an advanced culture on it's own. It had several localized ones in the past. Would you say the same about South America?They never would have 'developed an advanced culture?' The Inca's had an advanced civilization, even tho they never had the wheel.

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The most "advanced" civilizations produced by either subSaharan Africans or South Americans were only roughly on par with those of the Eurasian Bronze Age. Frankly, even then, it should be noted that they only managed to reach that level of development several millennia after the rest of the world had left it far behind.

Simply speaking, these peoples were, for all intents and purposes, developmental dead ends who weren't going to be going much of anywhere any time soon.

Granted, that wasn't entirely their fault. They were arguably victims of circumstance more than anything else - geographical isolation preventing the exchange of ideas, lackluster mineralogy hampering metal working, a lack of easily domesticable animals resulting in stunted agricultural prospects and possibly even greater vulnerability to disease (i.e. no interspecies transmission of pathogens) where Native American cultures are concerned. Africans might have also struggled due to living in an environment which, due to our species' having evolved there, was actually adapted to keep their populations, and therefore societal development, in check.

Either way regardless, however, the fact that these cultures were, in fact, "primitive" in comparison to the rest of the world is undeniable. There was also really no way they could have corrected that state of affairs purely on their own initiative using the tools and resources they had available - at least not within any kind of reasonable time frame.

ModerateGOP said:

Well that's easily done anyway, It has scifi elements. Maybe the disease reverses itself or maybe it somehow effects the West instead of Africa. It may be a blurb or something in there but not central to the story.

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I read alot of sci-fi and alternative history...I dont buy into crap that isnt supported at least somewhat realistically. One genre I do not read is fantasy.

For instance I have alot of trouble with the fact that S.M Stirling never explained, in 13+ novels, what happened to cause the downfall of technologies. He's lucky he's a very talented writer who could develop very compelling characters and stories.

Suggest you do some research into mosquito-borne illnesses in Africa and tse-tse flies.

mbig said:

They certainly aren't airtight, but are still useful for comparison.
Certainly many Asians overcame arriving here at a Huge DISadvantage (even more recently), and even rose above the Host population/'race.'


I find the OP Poll ridiculous.
Until Recently, Blacks ONLY came here because OF Slavery ..starting in the 17th C.

They were in NO position TO come here (or even know of us) any more than other Primitive cultures, such as New Guinean or Amazonian Tribesman.
It's an absurd Poll.

BUT, bowing to the Nonsense/impossible question/conditions of the Poll - whose Abusive POINT (like so many polls here) is that "Slavery is still the Main reason for Black Lack of Achievement and horrible state"....
They Would have been better off coming here by choice... BUT of course they would NOT have in any significant number.
AND, as my Imperfect example amply demonstrates, they have had plenty of time to overcome that.

and lets be clear...
Just as the OP, you are trying to "play Prosecutor" and get a "Yes" or "No" ONLY answer to a question that needs at least as much qualification as the OP gave To the 'poll'.
(again, so many are abusively Framed in this section)

Too bad you simply aren't adept enough to corner me into that unqualified Yes/No, nor answer the Gist of My point.

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Jesus...Christ...dude! It's a hypothetical scenario! Some of us enjoy those because it's a game to us -- it allows us to take what we know about immigrant groups in general and break down what would or wouldn't have happened in that scenario given what we do know.

The hypothetical question wasn't created to attack you. Relax!

Cardinal said:

Jesus...Christ...dude! It's a hypothetical scenario! Some of us enjoy those because it's a game to us -- it allows us to take what we know about immigrant groups in general and break down what would or wouldn't have happened in that scenario given what we do know.

The hypothetical question wasn't created to attack you. Relax!

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IOW, you went from Seriously disagreeing with/Challenging me, to FOLDING your tent because you were Gutted!

The Old Loser's Last Refuge "lighten up" after you Lost the point.
Btw, it's a game to me too. I'm just better at it.
b-bye!


EDIT: Note Cardinal's Above And Below Posts are PERSONAL attacks after he Lost a point.

He necessarily Dropped the issue and went for the empty "Lighten up Dude!"
and again below, the His ego-saving-attempt/OFF TOPIC and usual/mandatory Last-Wording below.
If you want to go for "lighten up" Cardinal, YOU are the one who should just drop it. Yes?

Lursa said:

I read alot of sci-fi and alternative history...I dont buy into crap that isnt supported at least somewhat realistically. One genre I do not read is fantasy.

For instance I have alot of trouble with the fact that S.M Stirling never explained, in 13+ novels, what happened to cause the downfall of technologies. He's lucky he's a very talented writer who could develop very compelling characters and stories.

Suggest you do some research into mosquito-borne illnesses in Africa and tse-tse flies.

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I definitely will thanks for the suggestion guys.

mbig said:

IOW, you went from Seriously disagreeing with/Challenging me, to FOLDING your tent because you were Gutted!

The Old deflected Concession/Last Refuge "lighten up" after you Lost the point.

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I'm not folding anything. I'm telling you that you from your tone you probably have several pulsing veins on your forehead right now. Why are you taking this thread so personally?

shrubnose said:

What would they have used for transportation? :roll:

Fill us in.




:lamo

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What, you think the Irish built the ships they came over on (the ships that managed to make it this far, that is.)