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Do You Support Ringling Bros' Decision To Remove Elephants From The Circus?

Do You Support Ringling Bros' Decision To Remove Elephants From The Circus?

  • Total voters
    61
tres borrachos said:
I don't know of anyone who thinks it's cruel to neuter an animal.
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Ahem...

Sorry, I don't see why people don't see that as cruel. We would never do that to a person, but we do it animals like it's no big thing.

Then again, there is a lot of people that support castration of men.
 
tres borrachos said:
I don't know of anyone who thinks it's cruel to neuter an animal. Especially when it's performed by a trained medical professional. PETA thinks crating dogs is cruel but there is also no scientific evidence to support that. There is scientific evidence to support the claims about elephants in circuses.
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Gee, I don't know, cutting the gonads off a critter in the name of animal control .......how would you like if someone was allowed to make that decision for you? ;)

Was it natural that the poor critter lose his balls? :2razz:

Scientific evidence on elephants? I would really like to read that got a link? Know who the studies were conducted by?
 
vesper said:
Gee, I don't know, cutting the gonads off a critter in the name of animal control .......how would you like if someone was allowed to make that decision for you? ;)

Was it natural that the poor critter lose his balls? :2razz:

Scientific evidence on elephants? I would really like to read that got a link? Know who the studies were conducted by?
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Animals don't have the ability to reason, so they don't know that neutering them is a bad thing. And it's actually a good thing for them. So it's not cruel.

Sure, here's a link to start. Let me know how many you want to see and I'll post more.

http://www.elephants.com/joanna/Bradshaw&Lindner_PTSD-rev.pdf
 
Bodhisattva said:
I see training them to perform as the abuse......
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:applaud Right on, Bod...

Early in my life I remember a TV show "Circus Boy", which starred Micky Dolenz (later known as one of the Monkey's band members). I mean I was a young kid - and somehow watching that show was disturbing to me. I couldn't really articulate what I was feeling when I saw the TV show.

When my son was about 6 to 8 years old, which has been sometime ago. I took him to see this very circus perform in Dallas. I did it I guess because "he wanted to go" despite my not being all that thrilled about it. Prior to that I had not personally been to a circus.

It took about 30 minutes into the circus performances for me to get my son and depart from that show. He said, "Why did we leave?"

I said, "Most of the animals in that show are wild animals and shouldn't be made to travel across the country in small confining cages. They shouldn't be chained. They shouldn't be forced to spend hours a day by people who force them to do what they call "tricks" or "performance gimmicks" that are not at all common to their wild environments. They're being made into animal clowns."

He said, "but dogs do tricks." I said, "Usually they are in environments that don't demand them to perform daily for a person or company's financial gain. And even dogs who are made to routinely perform...for somebody's financial gain. I'm also against
 
tres borrachos said:
Animals don't have the ability to reason, so they don't know that neutering them is a bad thing. And it's actually a good thing for them. So it's not cruel.
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I don't believe that. As someone that has been around animals his whole life I think animals do in fact have the ability to reason.

Also, most grown men that were circumcised as newborns don't know it's a bad thing, and last time I checked they do have the ability to reason. They just don't know the difference and haven't done the proper research.
 
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Henrin said:
I don't believe that. As someone that has been around animals his whole life I think animals do in fact have the ability to reason.
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Okay. I've never known an animal to go under anesthesia knowing his nuts were coming off, and then after waking up saying "Damn, master, that was mean". Maybe you've met some who have. I don't know.
 
tres borrachos said:
Okay. I've never known an animal to go under anesthesia knowing his nuts were coming off, and then after waking up saying "Damn, master, that was mean". Maybe you've met some who have. I don't know.
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So how is this response you're looking for supposed to appear to you exactly? Would you even know it when you saw it?
 
tres borrachos said:
Animals don't have the ability to reason, so they don't know that neutering them is a bad thing. And it's actually a good thing for them. So it's not cruel.

Sure, here's a link to start. Let me know how many you want to see and I'll post more.

http://www.elephants.com/joanna/Bradshaw&Lindner_PTSD-rev.pdf
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I read through the pdf, the author is basing her paper on her studies which she has written a book. This environmentalist, has written a book on PTSD of elephants.

From Amazon

"Wars, starvation, mass culls, poaching, and habitat loss have reduced elephant numbers from more than ten million to a few hundred thousand, leaving orphans bereft of the elders who would normally mentor them. As a consequence, traumatized elephants have become aggressive against people, other animals, and even one another; their behavior is comparable to that of humans who have experienced genocide, other types of violence, and social collapse. By exploring the elephant mind and experience in the wild and in captivity, Bradshaw bears witness to the breakdown of ancient elephant cultures.

All is not lost. People are working to save elephants by rescuing orphaned infants and rehabilitating adult zoo and circus elephants, using the same principles psychologists apply in treating humans who have survived trauma. Bradshaw urges us to support these and other models of elephant recovery and to solve pressing social and environmental crises affecting all animals, human or not.

-http://www.amazon.com/Elephants-Edge-Animals-Teach-Humanity/dp/0300167830-------------------------------------------
This is clearly a person who does not approve of even zoos let alone circus animals. She is quite idealistic and urges others to support this particular rehabilitation center for elephants. Well this really puts it into perspective. I know of cases of people throughout this world through missionaries that struggle just to get enough to eat and clean water to drink. Another human being struggling just for the esentials to survive and this woman is concerned with the mental health of elephants. Thanks for sharing.
 
vesper said:
I read through the pdf, the author is basing her paper on her studies which she has written a book. This environmentalist, has written a book on PTSD of elephants.

From Amazon

"Wars, starvation, mass culls, poaching, and habitat loss have reduced elephant numbers from more than ten million to a few hundred thousand, leaving orphans bereft of the elders who would normally mentor them. As a consequence, traumatized elephants have become aggressive against people, other animals, and even one another; their behavior is comparable to that of humans who have experienced genocide, other types of violence, and social collapse. By exploring the elephant mind and experience in the wild and in captivity, Bradshaw bears witness to the breakdown of ancient elephant cultures.

All is not lost. People are working to save elephants by rescuing orphaned infants and rehabilitating adult zoo and circus elephants, using the same principles psychologists apply in treating humans who have survived trauma. Bradshaw urges us to support these and other models of elephant recovery and to solve pressing social and environmental crises affecting all animals, human or not.

-Elephants on the Edge: What Animals Teach Us about Humanity: G. A. Bradshaw: 9780300167832: Amazon.com: Books-------------------------------------------
This is clearly a person who does not approve of even zoos let alone circus animals. She is quite idealistic and urges others to support this particular rehabilitation center for elephants. Well this really puts it into perspective. I know of cases of people throughout this world through missionaries that struggle just to get enough to eat and clean water to drink. Another human being struggling just for the esentials to survive and this woman is concerned with the mental health of elephants. Thanks for sharing.
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Yes, PTSD studies on the impact of their captivity for human entertainment. That's what her study was. That's what I was posting about (among other things that are wrong with it).

Look, I'm not a preachy person and never try to overdo my feelings on issues on this board. I can't convince people about what I know, so I'll just continue working to eliminate elephants from being used for entertainment purposes, and not apologize for it.

And I don't know if that last part was a dig at her or me or something else? I applaud the work of missionaries. I know humans are starving. I don't know if that's a reason to belittle people for caring about animals. This has somehow turned into the "people are bad for caring about animals while humans are starving" discussion I've been on the receiving end of too many times in my life, and that's when I know it's time for me to leave discussions before I get very upset at what is a slap to me.
 
Henrin said:
So how is this response you're looking for supposed to appear to you exactly? Would you even know it when you saw it?
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Yes, I've been with many animals who are being neutered. I've never seen the signs that you have that lead me to believe they have processed it in their minds that they were just neutered. Sorry.
 
tres borrachos said:
Yes, I've been with many animals who are being neutered. I've never seen the signs that you have that lead me to believe they have processed it in their minds that they were just neutered. Sorry.
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Regardless, abusing an ignorant creature is not somehow justified because they're ignorant.
 
Henrin said:
Regardless, abusing an ignorant creature is not somehow justified because they're ignorant.
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If you want to debate that neutering is abuse, I think we need another thread. That doesn't have to do with this subject.
 
tres borrachos said:
Yes, PTSD studies on the impact of their captivity for human entertainment. That's what her study was. That's what I was posting about (among other things that are wrong with it).

Look, I'm not a preachy person and never try to overdo my feelings on issues on this board. I can't convince people about what I know, so I'll just continue working to eliminate elephants from being used for entertainment purposes, and not apologize for it.

And I don't know if that last part was a dig at her or me or something else? I applaud the work of missionaries. I know humans are starving. I don't know if that's a reason to belittle people for caring about animals. This has somehow turned into the "people are bad for caring about animals while humans are starving" discussion I've been on the receiving end of too many times in my life, and that's when I know it's time for me to leave discussions before I get very upset at what is a slap to me.
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Tress her studies was not just on zoo and circus elephants but encompassed elephants that lost their parents during things like war and poaching in the wild.

I wish everyone was caring toward animals. Only a SOB would be deliberately cruel to an animal. And when abuses are discovered, they should be reported and the person prosecuted. But the article you just posted shows clearly how out of perspective the issue has become. To me it is really scary to think because a group finds something offensive they have the power to ban it for all because they think they know what is best. Scary stuff.
 
vesper said:
Tress her studies was not just on zoo and circus elephants but encompassed elephants that lost their parents during things like war and poaching in the wild.

I wish everyone was caring toward animals. Only a SOB would be deliberately cruel to an animal. And when abuses are discovered, they should be reported and the person prosecuted. But the article you just posted shows clearly how out of perspective the issue has become. To me it is really scary to think because a group finds something offensive they have the power to ban it for all because they think they know what is best. Scary stuff.
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There are lot of studies out there. It's been studied for decades. There are no studies that show it is safe or wise to have a 5000 pound animal stand on its head. There are many that show that it's not safe and it's not wise. I know what she was studying but there was a lot of information in her detailed studies about circus elephants which we were talking about.

If you have no issue with it, that's fine. I'd suggest taking a look sometime at the videos, the reports, the sanctuaries, and the real life elephants who came from circuses if you want to see it from the point of view that it isn't depriving humans of enjoyment.

And yes, some people wanted to ban it because we actually knew it was for the best for the animals. The animals have no voice except those who care enough to speak. I'm the most non-Liberal person on this board on certain days, and I know it isn't "offensive" - it's cruel and it's wrong. That's why I want it banned. If someone misses out on taking his kid to the circus, that's a small price to pay.
 
tres borrachos said:
Correct. And the performers are taken from their mothers years before they should be taken. And the babies are routinely traumatized in front of the older females, which not only hurts the babies, it horrifies the females who are by nature mothering types. Young female elephants hit puberty at age 10 and begin babysitting in the herds to practice for motherhood. I saw a baby getting whipped in front of a group of chained females who were screaming out in pain with him because they couldn't help him. It broke my heart.
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So sad.
Just reading about what you saw breaks my heart.
 
tres borrachos said:
There are lot of studies out there. It's been studied for decades. There are no studies that show it is safe or wise to have a 5000 pound animal stand on its head. There are many that show that it's not safe and it's not wise. I know what she was studying but there was a lot of information in her detailed studies about circus elephants which we were talking about.

If you have no issue with it, that's fine. I'd suggest taking a look sometime at the videos, the reports, the sanctuaries, and the real life elephants who came from circuses if you want to see it from the point of view that it isn't depriving humans of enjoyment.

And yes, some people wanted to ban it because we actually knew it was for the best for the animals. The animals have no voice except those who care enough to speak. I'm the most non-Liberal person on this board on certain days, and I know it isn't "offensive" - it's cruel and it's wrong. That's why I want it banned. If someone misses out on taking his kid to the circus, that's a small price to pay.
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I just watched a video of abuse on an elephant and it was greatly offensive. The person causing the abuse hopefully was charged. Where we differ is if a trainer, a good trainer can teach any animal to perform a trick, it takes a bond between the animal and the trainer. The trainer does not see teaching an animal tricks as abuse and takes offense at those who do. B&B has decided to remove the elephants from their show 1. due to the growing number of bans in cities that do not allow them due to activist groups and the costs involved in fighting the bans . And two, it takes a lot of money to provide passage for such large animals and care for them on the road. So the elephants are gone. What next? Lions or tigers? llamas or camels? Dogs and horses? No doubt the circus will look like it does to the North where they have removed all animal acts except humans. Cirque du Soleil even with no animals is still dogged with groups decrying unfit conditions for humans and from time to time you read of a fatality during a performance. So how long before they will be allowed to continue? For if someone is offended then it must be removed from society and banned. For it is their right to be able to feel good.
 
vesper said:
I just watched a video of abuse on an elephant and it was greatly offensive. The person causing the abuse hopefully was charged. Where we differ is if a trainer, a good trainer can teach any animal to perform a trick, it takes a bond between the animal and the trainer. The trainer does not see teaching an animal tricks as abuse and takes offense at those who do. B&B has decided to remove the elephants from their show 1. due to the growing number of bans in cities that do not allow them due to activist groups and the costs involved in fighting the bans . And two, it takes a lot of money to provide passage for such large animals and care for them on the road. So the elephants are gone. What next? Lions or tigers? llamas or camels? Dogs and horses? No doubt the circus will look like it does to the North where they have removed all animal acts except humans. Cirque du Soleil even with no animals is still dogged with groups decrying unfit conditions for humans and from time to time you read of a fatality during a performance. So how long before they will be allowed to continue? For if someone is offended then it must be removed from society and banned. For it is their right to be able to feel good.
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Yes, I am offended. By this:

circus%20elephant.jpg


and this:

24ring_480cityroom.jpg


and this:

84452398_172626c.jpg


and this:

chained-elephant.jpg


and this:

petabaldwin-6-web.jpg


and this:

Don't ever let the truth get in the way of good entertainment.
 
tres borrachos said:
Yes, I am offended. By this:

circus%20elephant.jpg


and this:

24ring_480cityroom.jpg


and this:

84452398_172626c.jpg


and this:

chained-elephant.jpg


and this:

petabaldwin-6-web.jpg


and this:

Don't ever let the truth get in the way of good entertainment.
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Morning Tres. Hope you had a super birthday. I understand your sensitivities. I apreciate your love for animals. There's a group of folks who find training any mammal to do tricks for entertainment purposes to be cruel. Whether it be elephants or teaching dogs to walk on their front legs and climb ladders or dance on their hind legs. There are activist groups currently going after every aspect of animals used in entertainment. Sea World, Circuses, dog shows, and horse racing seem to be the hot tickets at the moment. The NYT published a piece on the cruelity of horse racing. The investigated all the big races and discovered a very large number of horses die each year during events. Many seem to get a one way ticket to the glue factory after breaking a leg.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?_r=0

Some folks find this appalling and want horse racing banned. Others want Sea World shut down. I have my sensitivities too. I find the practice of declawing a cat inhumane and I do think keeping a dog caged for 10 hours a day while the owner is at work, let out for a few hours then caged again at night very cruel. But pet owners do it all the time. My concern is the banning of things because of a group's sensitivities. It isn't just with animals, it has become an issue in all things.
 
vesper said:
Morning Tres. Hope you had a super birthday. I understand your sensitivities. I apreciate your love for animals. There's a group of folks who find training any mammal to do tricks for entertainment purposes to be cruel. Whether it be elephants or teaching dogs to walk on their front legs and climb ladders or dance on their hind legs. There are activist groups currently going after every aspect of animals used in entertainment. Sea World, Circuses, dog shows, and horse racing seem to be the hot tickets at the moment. The NYT published a piece on the cruelity of horse racing. The investigated all the big races and discovered a very large number of horses die each year during events. Many seem to get a one way ticket to the glue factory after breaking a leg.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?_r=0

Some folks find this appalling and want horse racing banned. Others want Sea World shut down. I have my sensitivities too. I find the practice of declawing a cat inhumane and I do think keeping a dog caged for 10 hours a day while the owner is at work, let out for a few hours then caged again at night very cruel. But pet owners do it all the time. My concern is the banning of things because of a group's sensitivities. It isn't just with animals, it has become an issue in all things.
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Once again, I don't know anything about Sea World, and horse racing doesn't compare with what we're talking about. PETA wants horse racing shut down and they also want meat eating abolished. I'm talking about elephants in circuses which is the topic of this thread.

PS there are no glue factories in this country that use horses anymore, and after a race horse breaks its leg, it's euthanized. You can't place a horse with a broken leg on a van or trailers and transport it anywhere. Nobody ever claimed horses don't get injured on the track. They get injured in the riding schools, on farms, giving pony rides, and in the wild, too. One bad step will cause a horse's leg to be permanently and irreparably damaged. That's what happens when over 1000 pounds is supported by 4 sticks weighing about 10 pounds each.

PPS thanks, I had a good birthday and was spoiled rotten by the Mister and the 3 little Bs.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Really? You may wish to qualify that statement.
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sure-depends. some places elephants are treated well, some places they are not
 
CRUE CAB said:
Hence the reason to not allow it all. Which I have stood behind for decades.
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I am not willing to give governments that much power because the animal rights whackos will want more and more prohibitions to the point of not being able to own hunting dogs etc
 
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