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Do You Support Ringling Bros' Decision To Remove Elephants From The Circus?

Do You Support Ringling Bros' Decision To Remove Elephants From The Circus?

  • Total voters
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In the wild, elephants walk several miles every day with their herd. I have heard that the Ringling elephants are routinely chained up for 22 hours per day.
 
vesper said:
I guess one could say the same thing about horses and racing.

The Ugly Truth About Horse Racing
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Yes, and you posted about PETA capturing Steve Asmussen's assistant trainer Scott Blasi acting improperly. You don't think I don't know all about that? And I would suggest a deep reading into the matter. Blasi was obnoxious - he wasn't cruel. Horses are bred to run. Elephants are not bred to balance on barrels. While I appreciate that you took the time to look up horse racing, there is zero correlation between what Blasi did to Zayat's horse and what has anything to do with the elephants. And horse racing itself isn't cruel. There are some bad people in it. There is no positive to elephants being used in circuses, regardless of whether they are tucked into bed by their trainers or attacked with whips.
 
Hard Truth said:
Every minute in the USA another dog or cat is killed because it is unwanted. That is why everyone should get a mutt from a shelter rather than buying a purebred from a breeder.
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I haven't purchased an animal from a breeder in 20 years for this very reason.
 
tres borrachos said:
Rodeos are horrible. They're another classic example of people making animals do things they wouldn't normally do, all in the name of "entertainment". It isn't like teaching Spot to roll over for a cookie, either.
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At least rodeos have an origin based in a whole bunch of very necessary skillsets.
 
Hard Truth said:
In the wild, elephants walk several miles every day with their herd. I have heard that the Ringling elephants are routinely chained up for 22 hours per day.
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Correct. And the performers are taken from their mothers years before they should be taken. And the babies are routinely traumatized in front of the older females, which not only hurts the babies, it horrifies the females who are by nature mothering types. Young female elephants hit puberty at age 10 and begin babysitting in the herds to practice for motherhood. I saw a baby getting whipped in front of a group of chained females who were screaming out in pain with him because they couldn't help him. It broke my heart.
 
tres borrachos said:
Rodeos are horrible. They're another classic example of people making animals do things they wouldn't normally do, all in the name of "entertainment". It isn't like teaching Spot to roll over for a cookie, either.
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At least Spot gets a cookie....

I know some people who connect working dogs, from companion dogs, to kids' therapy dogs etc. They are being used extensively in childrens hospitals here especially cancer. And I know those dogs live for the pleasure and have had to 'babbysit' a golden lab who gets depressed when she can't "work"

I have prayed to my God, if there are no dog's in heaven, I am simply not coming. You can punch out another man, maybe get away with beating on his old lady, but abuse a dog and I will go fatal on him
 
tres borrachos said:
Yes, and you posted about PETA capturing Steve Asmussen's assistant trainer Scott Blasi acting improperly. You don't think I don't know all about that? And I would suggest a deep reading into the matter. Blasi was obnoxious - he wasn't cruel. Horses are bred to run. Elephants are not bred to balance on barrels. While I appreciate that you took the time to look up horse racing, there is zero correlation between what Blasi did to Zayat's horse and what has anything to do with the elephants. And horse racing itself isn't cruel. There are some bad people in it. There is no positive to elephants being used in circuses, regardless of whether they are tucked into bed by their trainers or attacked with whips.
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But that was my point, there are some good trainers and some bad trainers regardless of elephants or race horses. Yes horses are purposely bred to race. But the elephants in circuses were bred to be performers. They start their training very young. It's all they have known. Any animal in captivity being used for entertainment is being attacked as inhumane. From sea mammals to horses to elephants. I enjoy horse races, love to see the dolphin shows at Sea World and after centuries of elephants performing in circuses we are now told this is inhumane. Beating an animal, starving an animal, not providing shelter for an animal is inhumane.
 
The circus's decision to remove the elephants is no small matter -- it's a huge, huge, HUGE, decision .. obviously.
 
vesper said:
But that was my point, there are some good trainers and some bad trainers regardless of elephants or race horses. Yes horses are purposely bred to race. But the elephants in circuses were bred to be performers. They start their training very young. It's all they have known. Any animal in captivity being used for entertainment is being attacked as inhumane. From sea mammals to horses to elephants. I enjoy horse races, love to see the dolphin shows at Sea World and after centuries of elephants performing in circuses we are now told this is inhumane. Beating an animal, starving an animal, not providing shelter for an animal is inhumane.
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I know what your point was, and that isn't debatable. Yes, there are trainers who are cruel to elephants and then there are those who aren't. That's a fact. What's also a fact is that elephants shouldn't be trained for circus performance - period. There is no kindness to making them do what even the loving trainers make them do. By the very act, it's cruelty.

I didn't say anything about Sea World? I don't even know anything about it. I know horse training very well. It isn't cruel to make a horse run. It's what they were bred to do. Elephants weren't meant to balance on their heads. It isn't natural. Horses running is natural. There is a very very big distinction.
 
I don't see any reason to disagree with their business decision. They can do what they want.
 
tres borrachos said:
I know what your point was, and that isn't debatable. Yes, there are trainers who are cruel to elephants and then there are those who aren't. That's a fact. What's also a fact is that elephants shouldn't be trained for circus performance - period. There is no kindness to making them do what even the loving trainers make them do. By the very act, it's cruelty.

I didn't say anything about Sea World? I don't even know anything about it. I know horse training very well. It isn't cruel to make a horse run. It's what they were bred to do. Elephants weren't meant to balance on their heads. It isn't natural. Horses running is natural. There is a very very big distinction.
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I find the tricks they can train an elephant to do fascinating. It's sense of balance.....who knew an elephant could stand on a rolling barrel with all fours! Quite an amazing creature. I also find it fascinating how they can train a killer whale and dolphins as they do. It's like the trainer is so in tuned to the thinking of the creature and is inside its head. I do not see these acts as abuse anymore than cutting the gonads off a puppy to neuter him or clipping his ears or bobbing his tail to change his appearance.

But there is a movement at this time going after all animals used for entertainment. And they are going after race horsing, Just read one the other day involving sulky racing. Sea World and places like it have been attacked as well. It isn't just the circus elephant. I guess what bothers me most about this movement is that they have fuzzied the line what animal abuse truly entails. If the sensitivities of a group is enough to ban anything, then we are in real trouble.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I'm glad to see you've escaped.
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A long time ago. PETA has good intentions at its foundation, but it has become a caricature of legitimate animal rescue. And it's very close to being aptly called a terrorist organization too. Too bad, because they do a lot of good and have done a lot of good.
 
vesper said:
I find the tricks they can train an elephant to do fascinating. It's sense of balance.....who knew an elephant could stand on a rolling barrel with all fours! Quite an amazing creature. I also find it fascinating how they can train a killer whale and dolphins as they do. It's like the trainer is so in tuned to the thinking of the creature and is inside its head. I do not see these acts as abuse anymore than cutting the gonads off a puppy to neuter him or clipping his ears or bobbing his tail to change his appearance.

But there is a movement at this time going after all animals used for entertainment. And they are going after race horsing, Just read one the other day involving sulky racing. Sea World and places like it have been attacked as well. It isn't just the circus elephant. I guess what bothers me most about this movement is that they have fuzzied the line what animal abuse truly entails. If the sensitivities of a group is enough to ban anything, then we are in real trouble.
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PETA goes after everything from meat eating to fur wearing to people who crate their dogs. That doesn't make what happens to elephants and the cruelty that is their life any better or worse. The circus elephants were horrifically treated, and those that are in it still are. There are no positives to circus elephants for the elephants themselves.
 
tres borrachos said:
PETA goes after everything from meat eating to fur wearing to people who crate their dogs. That doesn't make what happens to elephants and the cruelty that is their life any better or worse. The circus elephants were horrifically treated, and those that are in it still are. There are no positives to circus elephants for the elephants themselves.
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Well Tres we will have to agree to disagree on this one. For I refuse to believe every elephant who was bred to be a performer in the circus is being abuse. Does it happen? Yes. Should the abuser be prosecuted? Yes. But because of sensitivities of opinions that training elephants to do tricks isn't a reason to ban them in general. Because if this continues, what you don't see abusive someone else might and ban that too.
 
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vesper said:
Well Tres we will have to agree to disagree on this one. For I refuse to believe every elephant who was bred to be a performer in the circus is being abuse. Does it happen? Yes. Should the abuser be prosecuted? Yes. But because of sensitivities of opinions that training elephants to do tricks isn't a reason to ban them in general. Because if this continues, what you don't see abusive someone else might and ban that too.
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Huh? I don't understand your last sentence. What does it mean?

Elephants aren't naturally inclined to stand on their heads. There are no elephants bred to be circus performers. You can't breed that into them. They are wild animals who live in very large very structures packs, and who roam many miles per day. They also have fears.
 
SlevinKelevra said:
Eventually circuses and zoos will be the last 'safe' place for many of the worlds great creatures.
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Zoos... fine. Sucks, but that is how it has to be... Circuses are a disgrace though.
 
tres borrachos said:
Huh? I don't understand your last sentence. What does it mean?

Elephants aren't naturally inclined to stand on their heads. There are no elephants bred to be circus performers. You can't breed that into them. They are wild animals who live in very large very structures packs, and who roam many miles per day. They also have fears.
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Tres.....elephants are born in captivity for the sole purpose of being circus performers. Elephants for that purpose have been reproduced in this country for hundreds of years. These animals if released in the wild would not survive. Circus life is all they know. Now I know you have a problem with the tricks they are taught. Fine. Some of us find it fascinating that a beast that size can be trained to do such things. But then again I also find it amazing that they can train a dog to sniff out drugs or open the fridge and grab a beer and take it to his master.
 
vesper said:
Well Tres we will have to agree to disagree on this one. For I refuse to believe every elephant who was bred to be a performer in the circus is being abuse. Does it happen? Yes. Should the abuser be prosecuted? Yes. But because of sensitivities of opinions that training elephants to do tricks isn't a reason to ban them in general. Because if this continues, what you don't see abusive someone else might and ban that too.
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I see training them to perform as the abuse...
 
Bodhisattva said:
I see training them to perform as the abuse...
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Some people agree with you. Some people think it is abusive to cage an animal even a pet at home. Some think it is abuse to cut the gonads off an animal because the owner doesn't want the humping on the legs of others. Everyone has an opinion.
 
vesper said:
Tres.....elephants are born in captivity for the sole purpose of being circus performers. Elephants for that purpose have been reproduced in this country for hundreds of years. These animals if released in the wild would not survive. Circus life is all they know. Now I know you have a problem with the tricks they are taught. Fine. Some of us find it fascinating that a beast that size can be trained to do such things. But then again I also find it amazing that they can train a dog to sniff out drugs or open the fridge and grab a beer and take it to his master.
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I know that elephants are bred for the circus. I'm not sure what that has to do with what I've been posting?

Of course they can't be released back into the wild. But that also isn't relevant to what I've been posting. They shouldn't be bred for circuses. They shouldn't be used in circuses. Elephants don't do well in circuses, whether they are captured for it or bred for it.

I would think it's fascinating to watch red ants devour a baby, which they have the capacity to do. I don't know that that would make it right though.
 
vesper said:
Some people agree with you. Some people think it is abusive to cage an animal even a pet at home. Some think it is abuse to cut the gonads off an animal because the owner doesn't want the humping on the legs of others. Everyone has an opinion.
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Agreed... although my opinion is the correct opinion, for your information.
 
vesper said:
Some people agree with you. Some people think it is abusive to cage an animal even a pet at home. Some think it is abuse to cut the gonads off an animal because the owner doesn't want the humping on the legs of others. Everyone has an opinion.
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I don't know of anyone who thinks it's cruel to neuter an animal. Especially when it's performed by a trained medical professional. PETA thinks crating dogs is cruel but there is also no scientific evidence to support that. There is scientific evidence to support the claims about elephants in circuses.
 
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