Did Poroshenko lie about troops at Debaltseve?

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

It appears that Porshenko lied about Ukrainian troops not being surrounded at Debaltseve during peace talks

Two days after the belligerent parties in eastern Ukraine were supposed to suspend fighting, the truce is not holding. The agreement sealed last Thursday has hit the first of several predictable snags: Kiev refuses to recognize that a large number of its troops are encircled near the railroad junction of Debaltseve, and fighting rages on as these troops try to break out. Although both sides are guilty of violating the cease-fire, responsibility for preserving it is now in the hands of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.
..........
There are plenty of authoritative Western press reports (here's one from The New York Times and one from The Wall Street Journal), as well as Ukrainian reports citing military sources in the area, confirming that a sizable Ukrainian contingent -- up to 8,000 troops -- has been encircled by separatist forces.
.................
The matter came up during the cease-fire talks in Minsk, but Poroshenko adamantly denied the problem existed. Coming out of the marathon negotiations, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered military experts to figure out what was going on. Whatever they reported back, and whatever other orders Putin may have given, the Ukrainian troops clearly never ceased in their efforts to fight out of the "cauldron", and the rebels -- possibly aided by Russian soldiers -- remained similarly stubborn in keeping them sealed in.

Ukraine's President Is Trapped With His Troops - Bloomberg View

Perhaps he did it to make it appear that the separatists were violating the ceasefire

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the fighting was inevitable after Poroshenko’s insistence at last week’s peace negotiations that the troops were not surrounded.

Rout has Ukraine pleading for peacekeepers - The Washington Post

Regardless, it appears that the situation left Ukrainian troops demoralized and perturbed at the Ukrainian leadership

But for many, the retreat was also a huge embarrassment — and the tipping point over frustrations with military commanders who the soldiers believe bungled the siege.

“The Russians are coming, and this is my Ukraine — Ukraine or die,” said Trukhan, a sniper with the Lviv battalion. “But our commanders abandoned us. And the Ukrainian media were repeating what they were saying in Kiev — that we had everything, that we weren’t surrounded. It was all lies.”

The collective frustrations of the more than 1,000 troops who flooded Artemivsk on Wednesday could have serious consequences for the Ukrainian military as the fight against pro-Russian separatists wears on — something almost all of them believe will happen.

Ukrainian battalion

So did Poroshenko deliberately lie about the situation in Debaltseve? Did he allow his troops to be killed and humiliated to try to embarrass the rebels? If so, that is troubling indeed.

Peter King · Feb 22, 2015

I don't trust anyone in that country, all are liars. This government is supported by parties no decent government should be supported by. The separatists are supported by troops that should not be there.

They killed hundreds of my country men and I dislike all of them, each and every one and I trust them as far as I can throw (and I have a bad back so that is not very far at all).

DaveFagan · Feb 22, 2015

MildSteel said:
It appears that Porshenko lied about Ukrainian troops not being surrounded at Debaltseve during peace talks

Ukraine's President Is Trapped With His Troops - Bloomberg View

Perhaps he did it to make it appear that the separatists were violating the ceasefire

Rout has Ukraine pleading for peacekeepers - The Washington Post

Regardless, it appears that the situation left Ukrainian troops demoralized and perturbed at the Ukrainian leadership

Ukrainian battalion

So did Poroshenko deliberately lie about the situation in Debaltseve? Did he allow his troops to be killed and humiliated to try to embarrass the rebels? If so, that is troubling indeed.

Yes. He, Poroshenko, clearly lied. Many Ukrainians think he is afraid of the Kiev Nazi Mafia. The same people that provided the muscle for the Maidan and perhaps the people responsible for many of the Maidan deaths. He's really going to have to watch his back. The US may find their allies to be a bunch of Nazis, but then, when all you are really after is land, resources, and big bank deals, perhaps that's enough. If so, don't you think Kerry, the CIA/NED and other players should just say it out loud. Cut the charade of liberty, justice and democracy where we have initiated a coup to overthrow a democracy. It must be way more complicated than my pay grade, but since all USA diplomats speak with a forked tongue, maybe it's just a language problem, or a pack of lies, eh?

joG · Feb 22, 2015

MildSteel said:
It appears that Porshenko lied about Ukrainian troops not being surrounded at Debaltseve during peace talks

Ukraine's President Is Trapped With His Troops - Bloomberg View

Perhaps he did it to make it appear that the separatists were violating the ceasefire

Rout has Ukraine pleading for peacekeepers - The Washington Post

Regardless, it appears that the situation left Ukrainian troops demoralized and perturbed at the Ukrainian leadership

Ukrainian battalion

So did Poroshenko deliberately lie about the situation in Debaltseve? Did he allow his troops to be killed and humiliated to try to embarrass the rebels? If so, that is troubling indeed.

There is no way for us to tell, what is really happening. behind the fog of war. Putin is not the only one to have been caught lying, after all.

JANFU · Feb 22, 2015

joG said:
There is no way for us to tell, what is really happening. behind the fog of war. Putin is not the only one to have been caught lying, after all.

True,the lies are to draw the west into a confrontation with Russia.
Lets keep it at sanctions.
It would be different if Putin tries it in the Baltic's.
Time for NATO -Canada & EU countries to upgrade their military.

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

DaveFagan said:
Yes. He, Poroshenko, clearly lied. Many Ukrainians think he is afraid of the Kiev Nazi Mafia. The same people that provided the muscle for the Maidan and perhaps the people responsible for many of the Maidan deaths. He's really going to have to watch his back. The US may find their allies to be a bunch of Nazis, but then, when all you are really after is land, resources, and big bank deals, perhaps that's enough. If so, don't you think Kerry, the CIA/NED and other players should just say it out loud. Cut the charade of liberty, justice and democracy where we have initiated a coup to overthrow a democracy. It must be way more complicated than my pay grade, but since all USA diplomats speak with a forked tongue, maybe it's just a language problem, or a pack of lies, eh?

Well Dave, that's how they do it. Governments didn't just start lying with this Ukraine issue.

I don't know about that mafia stuff. Maybe. That guy is very wealthy. I'm sure he didn't get it by being Mother Teresa.

DaveFagan · Feb 22, 2015

MildSteel said:
Well Dave, that's how they do it. Governments didn't just start lying with this Ukraine issue.

I don't know about that mafia stuff. Maybe. That guy is very wealthy. I'm sure he didn't get it by being Mother Teresa.

I meant to use "mafia" synonomously with power structure. Could be Church, gov't, Union, Bank, Militants, etc. When did we vote that it was OK for CORPORATE Central Banks to help us take over the World with economic warfare. I must have missed that election, eh?

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

DaveFagan said:
I meant to use "mafia" synonomously with power structure. Could be Church, gov't, Union, Bank, Militants, etc. When did we vote that it was OK for CORPORATE Central Banks to help us take over the World with economic warfare. I must have missed that election, eh?

Me too Dave. Me too. It's really amazing the system these people have created. People think they are empowered by voting, but in reality they have very very little power. Both parties are bought off.

Montecresto · Feb 22, 2015

What? Ukraine lied. Lol, no wonder Putin doesn't care what America thinks.

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

Check this out if you didn't read the all of the stories in first post

“We left everything in Debaltseve. We just came out with the clothes on our backs,” said Andrushko, shirtless except for a handgun he kept holstered to his chest. A few moments later, he wriggled out of his pants as well, handing them to his friend Volodymyr Trukhan, 29, whose only pair was ruined in the escape.

Standing in the hotel’s second-floor lobby wearing justhis underwear — and his handgun — Andrushko threw back his shoulders, puffed out his chest and yelled to his friend Roman, who was nursing a concussion: “Who are we?”

Andrushko and Roman roared in unison: “Lions!” — the symbol of their battalion, also tattooed on Andrushko’s chest.

Dang!! They were hauling ass out of there in their drawers! :lamo

Damn!!!!

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

Montecresto said:
What? Ukraine lied. Lol, no wonder Putin doesn't care what America thinks.

That is troublesome if that guy lied like that and got all those soldiers killed. That is very cold blooded. Man the type of people that are running this world are far out.

MildSteel · Feb 22, 2015

Well this is just another mess caused by the neocons. Damn!!! When will the people of this country learn that those folks don't do anything but cause trouble.

joG · Feb 23, 2015

JANFU said:
True,the lies are to draw the west into a confrontation with Russia.
Lets keep it at sanctions.
It would be different if Putin tries it in the Baltic's.
Time for NATO -Canada & EU countries to upgrade their military.

One main question is how to deploy Nato assets in Europe. There should be more in the Eastern countries and fewer in the West.

Rogue Valley · Feb 23, 2015

Even IF Debaltseve was surrounded (no one knows for certain), the rebels violated the Minsk II Accord agreement by continuing to shell the city. The ceasefire went into effect the morning of 14 February 2015. Debaltseve didn't fall until 18 February. During those four days of ceasefire violation, the rebels finished encircling the government forces which they probably hadn't accomplished by the morning of 14 February ... hence the necessity to violate the ceasefire.

Ukraine Ceasefire Goes Into Effect, but Rebel Leader in Key Town Repudiates Accord

MildSteel · Feb 23, 2015

Simpleχity;1064347058 said:
Even IF Debaltseve was surrounded (no one knows for certain)

According to Porenshenko, he knew for certain. Here he is in his own words

We were asserting and proved: Debaltseve was under our control, there was no encirclement, and our troops left the area in a planned and organized manner with all the heavy weaponry: tanks, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery and vehicles.

Poroshenko: Russia 'was put to shame' in Debaltseve (VIDEO, TRANSCRIPT)

But according to this firsthand account from a Ukrainian soldier, it was all a bunch of bulls***.

“But our commanders abandoned us. And the Ukrainian media were repeating what they were saying in Kiev — that we had everything, that we weren’t surrounded. It was all lies.”

WOW! The commanders abandoned their troops!!! Damn!!! What kind of crap is that????

“We left everything in Debaltseve. We just came out with the clothes on our backs,” said Andrushko, shirtless except for a handgun he kept holstered to his chest. A few moments later, he wriggled out of his pants as well, handing them to his friend Volodymyr Trukhan, 29, whose only pair was ruined in the escape.

Damn!!! Those people were left there and barely escaped with only the clothes on their backs, some even down to only their underwear!!!! Damn!!!

Nobody knows for sure???? Yeah right.

Rogue Valley · Feb 23, 2015

MildSteel said:
Nobody knows for sure???? Yeah right.

I personally think they were surrounded, but either way ... the rebels did not honor the 14 February ceasefire and continued shelling the city until 18 February. If not for this, an orderly garrison surrender would have occurred instead of a chaotic break-out attempt. No unnecessary deaths, and the Minsk II Accord guaranteed an "all for all" prisoner exchange which is already occurring.

MildSteel · Feb 23, 2015

Simpleχity;1064347202 said:
I personally think they were surrounded, but either way ... the rebels did not honor the 14 February ceasefire and continued shelling the city until 18 February. If not for this, an orderly garrison surrender would have occurred instead of a chaotic break-out attempt. No unnecessary deaths, and the Minsk II Accord guaranteed an "all for all" prisoner exchange which is already occurring.

Poroshenko deliberately lied about it. He deliberately sacrificed his own soldiers in such a brutal way simply to try to embarrass the rebels. That is beyond disgusting.

Montecresto · Feb 23, 2015

MildSteel said:
Poroshenko deliberately lied about it. He deliberately sacrificed his own soldiers in such a brutal way simply to try to embarrass the rebels. That is beyond disgusting.

These things reinforce Putins original legitimacy last year.

Rogue Valley · Feb 23, 2015

MildSteel said:
Poroshenko deliberately lied about it.

No one knows precisely what Poroshenko knew and when except the government hierarchy. Debaltseve was indeed a tactical defeat for the government, but it was also a strategic victory in the sense that it moved several Western nations significantly closer to arming Ukraine. Casualties aside, I think the Poroshenko came out ahead here. The rebels obtained a destroyed town. But in the process the world witnessed their ceasefire violations, prisoners will be repatriated, OSCE international monitors are now in the area, and some nations moved several notches closer to arming Ukraine. Whether he controls the rebels or not, Putin takes an international credibility hit here either way.

Montecresto · Feb 23, 2015

Simpleχity;1064347515 said:
No one knows precisely what Poroshenko knew and when except the government hierarchy. Debaltseve was indeed a tactical defeat for the government, but it was also a strategic victory in the sense that it moved several Western nations significantly closer to arming Ukraine. Casualties aside, I think the Poroshenko came out ahead here. The rebels obtained a destroyed town. But in the process the world witnessed their ceasefire violations, prisoners will be repatriated, OSCE international monitors are now in the area, and some nations moved several notches closer to arming Ukraine. Whether he controls the rebels or not, Putin takes an international credibility hit here either way.

Right, because handing someone a loaded weapon and standing behind them with encouragement to fight, is a strategic victory. If things simmered down, which would happen if Ukraine, with Western nudging, would allow the separatists what they want, just as we have supported separatists in so many other regions, the senseless killing and destruction would end, and we'd not be talking about this in a short time. But if Ukraine, with Western nudging is dogmatic in demands for Russian withdrawal from Crimea, and denying the separatists their goal, then all bets are off.

Reformedfindlay · Feb 23, 2015

DaveFagan said:
Yes. He, Poroshenko, clearly lied. Many Ukrainians think he is afraid of the Kiev Nazi Mafia. The same people that provided the muscle for the Maidan and perhaps the people responsible for many of the Maidan deaths. He's really going to have to watch his back. The US may find their allies to be a bunch of Nazis, but then, when all you are really after is land, resources, and big bank deals, perhaps that's enough. If so, don't you think Kerry, the CIA/NED and other players should just say it out loud. Cut the charade of liberty, justice and democracy where we have initiated a coup to overthrow a democracy. It must be way more complicated than my pay grade, but since all USA diplomats speak with a forked tongue, maybe it's just a language problem, or a pack of lies, eh?

What the hell is your issue about land resources big money capitalism blah blah.

News flash from a 16 year old kiddo. Humanity, since its genesis, has been fighting historically over three things: Money, land, and women (women not so much anymore).

Why do you think Russia gives a **** about Ukraine? Economic interests...

Our giving a ****? As you pointed out, economic interests.

Yet you over-react as if this was wrong or somehow new or can even be fixed. It's in our nature as humans, get over it.

Montecresto · Feb 23, 2015

Luftwaffe said:
What the hell is your issue about land resources big money capitalism blah blah.

News flash from a 16 year old kiddo. Humanity, since its genesis, has been fighting historically over three things: Money, land, and women (women not so much anymore).

Why do you think Russia gives a **** about Ukraine? Economic interests...

Our giving a ****? As you pointed out, economic interests.

Yet you over-react as if this was wrong or somehow new or can even be fixed. It's in our nature as humans, get over it.

Do we take that as a tacit support for what Putins doing on the merits that countries advance their own interests?

DaveFagan · Feb 23, 2015

Luftwaffe said:
What the hell is your issue about land resources big money capitalism blah blah.

News flash from a 16 year old kiddo. Humanity, since its genesis, has been fighting historically over three things: Money, land, and women (women not so much anymore).

Why do you think Russia gives a **** about Ukraine? Economic interests...

Our giving a ****? As you pointed out, economic interests.

Yet you over-react as if this was wrong or somehow new or can even be fixed. It's in our nature as humans, get over it.

We'll send Putin a memo that it is OK to just kick ass and take the whole Ukraine because if it's good for the goose (USA), it's good for the gander (Russia). I don't have any issue wth land resources, big money, Capitalism, etc. My issue is with a covert agenda under the guise of liberty and democracy to control a Nation by fomenting death, chaos, and destruction. The agenda is entirely CORPORATE and will impoverish Ukrainians, lower their wages (good for Corporate employment), steal their patrimony (land, resources, pipelines, infrastructure) for Western Central Bank advantage and I didn't vote for that. I wouldn't vote for that. Most citizens of the USA would not support that if they were aware of what was really happening. CorpGov, don't ya' know? Think NWO, New World Order of CORPORATIONS running gov't.

Reformedfindlay · Feb 23, 2015

Montecresto said:
Do we take that as a tacit support for what Putins doing on the merits that countries advance their own interests?

Take that as "I understand why Putin is doing what he is doing, although I don't support it."

I only support what furthers US interests thank you very much. The Russians I can give a **** about.

JANFU · Feb 23, 2015

joG said:
One main question is how to deploy Nato assets in Europe. There should be more in the Eastern countries and fewer in the West.

They let defense expenditures fall. They did not want to piss Putin off.
After the Georgia incidents is when this should have happened.

Did Poroshenko lie about troops at Debaltseve?

Did Poroshenko lie about troops at Debaltseve

Yes

No

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MildSteel

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MildSteel

DaveFagan

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Lead or get out of the way

MildSteel

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cynical class clown

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