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1985 vs 2015

Was America better off in 1985, or are we better off today in 2015?

  • 1985 was better overall

    Votes: 25 50.0%

  • 2015 is better overall

    Votes: 25 50.0%
  • Total voters
    50
US Conservative said:
I agree, plus people continue to change well after they are 18. Poor students become serious and get better, some do their own thing that school would never have prepared them for either. The problem is in trying to make outcomes equal as a measure of some amorphous "fairness".
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No one has suggested equal outcomes, only equal opportunities.
 
imagep said:
What's funny is that my state is considered near the bottom of the barrel in education, and yours is at the top.

Maybe the reason why we have a bad education system in SC is because we put so many resources into vocational training. I'm not super big on vocational training, as most "vo" students never get a job in the field they train in. Who really wants an 18 year old fixing their car, or working on their plumbing? Most vo students end up getting a minimum wage job, and few of them are qualified to attend college because they spent half their high school time learning about cosmetology or small engine repair.
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Perhaps they get them interested in things that expand on their already established interests.
 
MildSteel said:
What is fair about that? Unless achievers are in reality cheaters. That is not good.
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That would be another liberal myth-you must find some explanation why things to meet your preconceptions-and so cheating is namedropped.

I was a good student, and better in college-and I did not cheat. Things couldn't be equal if you tried.

And something to consider-there has been documented cheating by teachers to raise scores for underperforming schools.
 
imagep said:
What's funny is that my state is considered near the bottom of the barrel in education, and yours is at the top.

Maybe the reason why we have a bad education system in SC is because we put so many resources into vocational training. I'm not super big on vocational training, as most "vo" students never get a job in the field they train in. Who really wants an 18 year old fixing their car, or working on their plumbing? Most vo students end up getting a minimum wage job, and few of them are qualified to attend college because they spent half their high school time learning about cosmetology or small engine repair.
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Even if thats the case, isn't an education that prepares them earlier to deal with the realities of a vocational career the better choice?
 
No contest... 1985 was far better than today.

Amerika circa 2015 is a cesspool of nonthinking morons who can't open a car door with a key. Technology is great, but Amerikans are far more ignorant, belligerent, superficial, phony, and rude compared to Americans 30 years ago.

At least you could have a normal conversation with an American 30 years ago... we had a fairly common heritage and culture, patriotism was much stronger, there was a much more grounded sense of morality and right vs wrong.

What we are witnessing today is a nation that is in the final stages of collapse - to be sure the cracks were evident in 1985, and even then I knew our nation's days were numbered, but at least at that time I had hope that freedom would endure for my lifetime - I no longer hold that hope. We have simply deteriorated too far, and I have enough years left to live that, barring an unnatural death, I will live to see my country collapse into chaos and tyranny.

No, 1985 vs 2015 is no contest... 1985 was a much better time to be alive.
 
US Conservative said:
I took AP classes for the grades, you got an extra point above each letter grade for AP, and because it would get college credit if you did well on the AP exams.

But I did take standard classes, and it was like being in the class in gangsters paradise, lean on me, etc.
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I just went to regular public schools, in pretty average small town places. For the most part, I didn't have any gangsters in any of my classes. You must have grown up in the inner city.

You can't prop people up forever, eventually its sink or swim time, and education should reflect that. **** kids can't even give me change at the drive through anymore.
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I agree. I guess that's why we allow students to drop out of school after a particular age. But just because some kids drop out, or fail to learn, doesn't mean that we shouldn't give all students the opportunity to learn. Most don't drop out, and most do learn, and most can give correct change. Like you keep saying, there will always be a few losers.
 
US Conservative said:
Thats another liberal myth-you must find some explanation why things to meet your preconceptions-and so you namedrop cheating.

I was a good student, and better in college-and I did not cheat. Things couldn't be equal if you tried.

And something to consider-there has been documented cheating by teachers to raise scores for underperforming schools.
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When I was in college I was almost at the top of my class. I did not cheat, although I did copy some homework for a stupid class that I really did not need but was required to take anyway.

My point is that holding back achievers is not fair. However, I have seen that sometimes so called achievers will do anything, including cheating and other unfair means to achieve their goals. In that case, the government may have a role to play.
 
US Conservative said:
We do here, and its an active adversary in preventing higher scores (more money never works), increasing competition, etc.
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Why in the world do you continue to live in a state that you dislike so much? Maybe you should vote with your feet.
 
There were decidedly less middle aged white men with misplaced anger spelling America with a K in 1985.
 
imagep said:
I just went to regular public schools, in pretty average small town places. For the most part, I didn't have any gangsters in any of my classes. You must have grown up in the inner city.



I agree. I guess that's why we allow students to drop out of school after a particular age. But just because some kids drop out, or fail to learn, doesn't mean that we shouldn't give all students the opportunity to learn. Most don't drop out, and most do learn, and most can give correct change. Like you keep saying, there will always be a few losers.
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Outskirts of LA, so it was all kinds of students.

Im not saying deny anyone opportunity-Im saying its its not being utilized, why not try another path that might be helpful?
 
MildSteel said:
When I was in college I was almost at the top of my class. I did not cheat, although I did copy some homework for a stupid class that I really did not need but was required to take anyway.

My point is that holding back achievers is not fair. However, I have seen that sometimes so called achievers will do anything, including cheating and other unfair means to achieve their goals. In that case, the government may have a role to play.
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Think back, did you ever see a poor student cheating? I probably did more than those who did well. Cheaters in school, and later in life are not restricted to one particular class of student.
 
imagep said:
What's funny is that my state is considered near the bottom of the barrel in education, and yours is at the top.

Maybe the reason why we have a bad education system in SC is because we put so many resources into vocational training. I'm not super big on vocational training, as most "vo" students never get a job in the field they train in. Who really wants an 18 year old fixing their car, or working on their plumbing? Most vo students end up getting a minimum wage job, and few of them are qualified to attend college because they spent half their high school time learning about cosmetology or small engine repair.
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IMHO, I think the biggest reason we are at the top is because of very strict standards on who can enter the field, and also the training involved to hold ones licensure. We took a page from how many top performing counties do well and quality of teacher does without a doubt counts. We do have our problems and a big one is how we educate our poorest students. We also have an inequality issue in the state. I believe (along with many other educators in the state) we have abandoned these children.
 
1985/86 I was at the top of my career, Expo 86 was in the works here and I was lead gun at my station, covering first an unexpected leadership campaign and then a six week election, I was on the road most of a year.

I miss being able to simply board an airplane or enter the US with a driver's license, I do not miss the play of the Canucks in that era. I do like the convenience of cell phones, but not the intrusion they have become. I would not give up the internet for anything in that era. I did like the fashions of that day over what I see here now, and back then women had grace and charm; they have become hard and often cynical, at least here.

I do not find the threat of terror to be much different than the threat of global nuclear warfare with a president making jokes about "we will bomb them at noon".

I would like to make today's money in that era.....and know now what I didn't know then about women. Had that been the case then I would not have been at top of my career.
 
US Conservative said:
Think back, did you ever see a poor student cheating? I probably did more than those who did well. Cheaters in school, and later in life are not restricted to one particular class of student.
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Yes, but rich kids cheated too.
 
Actually come to think about it, I did not like people trying to cheat when I was in college. It really used to annoy me. I remember I made one guy very, very mad because I would not give him answers on a test.
 
rabbitcaebannog said:
IMHO, I think the biggest reason we are at the top is because of very strict standards on who can enter the field, and also the training involved to hold ones licensure. We took a page from how many top performing counties do well and quality of teacher does without a doubt counts. We do have our problems and a big one is how we educate our poorest students. We also have an inequality issue in the state. I believe (along with many other educators in the state) we have abandoned these children.
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Its interesting to me that you appear aware that high standards of excellence and competition have benefited your profession, due to the quality of product it might produce, but dont extend that to schools in general.
 
MildSteel said:
Actually come to think about it, I did not like people trying to cheat when I was in college. It really used to annoy me. I remember I made one guy very, very mad because I would not give him answers on a test.
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It pissed me off too. I once had a young married couple offer me $500 to take their biology final for them. They failed out soon after.

Separating effort from reward is my problem, as is being incompetent in the medical field where you can hurt or kill someone.
 
US Conservative said:
And when that "fairness" means holding back some like the achievers?
Frankly we probably would do better elevating them, while we babysit the rest.
Theres nowhere to go but up as is.
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I'm beginning to suspect that you just had a bad experience in a bad school.

In my school district, the high schools have several different levels of classes. There are the vocational classes, the "technical prep" classes (to prepare student for post-high school vocational training), the "college prep" classes, the honors classes, the AP classes, and they even bus high schoolers to local college for "duel credit" classes that count towards both high school and college. Our highest performing students can graduate high school with their freshman year of college or half of an associated degree at our community college already completed.

Students with repeated behavior problems are sent to the county "alternative school", which is basically a "last chance" facility that doesn't put up with any crap before they expel students.
 
US Conservative said:
It pissed me off too. I once had a young married couple offer me $500 to take their biology final for them. They failed out soon after.

Separating effort from reward is my problem, as is being incompetent in the medical field where you can hurt or kill someone.
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Yeah I remember spending hours everyday studying calculus. Then somebody wants me to give them answers? Sorry.
 
imagep said:
I'm beginning to suspect that you just had a bad experience in a bad school.

In my school district, the high schools have several different levels of classes. There are the vocational classes, the "technical prep" classes (to prepare student for post-high school vocational training), the "college prep" classes, the honors classes, the AP classes, and they even bus high schoolers to local college for "duel credit" classes that count towards both high school and college. Our highest performing students can graduate high school with their freshman year of college or half of an associated degree at our community college already completed.

Students with repeated behavior problems are sent to the county "alternative school", which is basically a "last chance" facility that doesn't put up with any crap before they expel students.
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Well I benefited-my mother was a teacher, and she had ways to get me into the better teachers classes.

What you describe is a concept I described to my mom years ago, but I used the term "educational triage".

Her, and several other teachers (many mine, as my mom is friends with them to this day) I ran the idea by essentially said some mix of its being not fair, bad for self esteem, or it didn't provide roll models for the less capable students. I asked how it was the better performing students job to do that-and never got a cogent answer.

Educating children isnt an insurmountable task, we've done it better before. Thomas Sowell says he received an excellent education in Harlem in the 40's and 50's. Yes, the home environment is a critical factor-but one schools can't control.

We need to change course, where we are headed isn't working.
 
US Conservative said:
Its interesting to me that you appear aware that high standards of excellence and competition have benefited your profession, due to the quality of product it might produce, but dont extend that to schools in general.
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Our charter schools are zapping money from poorer schools so that is an issue. The positive is our well trained profession. Maybe you didn't read my post.
 
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