- Joined
- Jun 23, 2009
- Messages
- 133,631
- Reaction score
- 30,937
- Location
- Bagdad, La.
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Very Conservative
If they're Muslims, then what else are we to call them?
Your first paragraph was quite good, the rest however....
As far as moderate interpretations of Islam, I will look those up, but for the sake of time please confirm that they think it's ok for others to talk bad about Muhammed, draw his picture, drink booze, have sex outside marriage, blaspheme, ok for people to be gay, women can drive, etc. And please confirm that they think Shariah law based on Haddith is a very bad idea, that they are willing to fight to protect western values against what you apparently think is a more extreme version of Islam.
I don't think anyone is worrying about the person that used to be Muslim and isn't practicing anymore. By definition that person is not Muslim. I'm not an ethnocentric, but you seem to be confusing Islam with ethnic Middle Eastern person.
I don't get the reasoning behind your 3rd paragraph. Is this just a context builder?
Your last paragraph is interesting. First, nice job sneaking in a star trek term, second of course it's not a collective. It would be the most disfunctional borg collective ever because all of the borg would be trying to kill each other over who is the rightful successor to chief borg Muhammad. Joking aside, it does not function as a self aware instrument, but the uniting principle behind Islam is intolerance and taken as a group, over time this can and will erode our liberalism if we allow it to.
No one mentioned backlashes except you. I don't think stopping the free flow of Muslims into the Western world is a backlash. Rather, I think it is a defense against an incompatible ideology. Similar to communism. We wouldn't have allowed free flow of known communists into the western world when that was a threat to liberal democracy. Why then are we allowing it now? Have we become so PC that we aren't allowed to identify a threat and take practical measures to stop it?
Hezbollah essentially has imprisoned the whole of Lebanon. While it is a useful tool of Iran, it is the people of Lebanon who will suffer the consequences of Hezbollah's actions. Their leaders and fighters will be holed up in some tunnel while the population gets bombed in retaliation for the bombing of Israeli cities.
I guess from where you come from bombing Israeli cities is probably more merciful than what would have happened to their parents and grandparents had they not left Europe.
It's just X and me assing with each other. There's no there there.
Yes.
Islam is a violent lunatic cult just as Christianity was in its more primordial days. Either way it should be opposed as should all religion. That said, Christianity is more advanced than Islam culturally and is what helped foster the miracle that is Western European civilization.
Yes.
Islam is a violent lunatic cult just as Christianity was in its more primordial days. Either way it should be opposed as should all religion. That said, Christianity is more advanced than Islam culturally and is what helped foster the miracle that is Western European civilization.
I disagree. There have been times in history Christianity after it had been established was used by evil people for political gain of power. In the beginnings of Christianity more Christians were sent to heinous deaths than any other in history. One needs not look any further than Rome for that history lesson.
Yeah, and the Jewish people came into existence and freedom by starting a war of conquest and genocide against the people who previously lived in the promised land. And their laws required stoning women to death when they weren't virgins anymore at wedding night. Yet I don't have the impression that Jewish people today are a particularly violent people.
What's your point? How is it relevant what one or the other religion did 1400 years ago, for today's situation?
Your take on Jewish law is a bit perverted but that aside, it all started with Abraham and every major religion associates with Abraham. The problem for Islam, their claim to Jerusalem came thousands of years too late. My point is this....the prophet Mohammed was himself a militant/politician. Those acting in ISIS are doing so in the same barbaric way Islam was forced on other countries thousands of years ago.
Yes (Please explain why)
No
Other
At one point in history, the Arabic lands and peoples had the more tolerant laws and educated population, and the more advanced science and mathematics. Once the EU Dark Ages passed, with the influx of these more advanced ideas, it was Western culture that surpassed them. Kinda think they never got over that. Now these Militant Islamic Fundamentalists (and yes, I believe that this is the more proper and accurate term) want to go back to even before that time when they were more advanced, and want to drag the rest of the world down along with them.
Okay, so you're basically saying "Islam is bad because my religion is better"?
Yes, Mohammed was not just divine prophet, but worldly leader too. Kind of like Jesus and Emperor Constantine in the same person. But so was Moses. And although he didn't have a nation, but just a clan, Abraham was too.
What I'm saying is just because a religion was violently spread at one time or another in the past, or had laws that appear barbaric by today's standards, doesn't allow conclusions how it's followers are going to behave a millennium later. There is no such rule as "one violent, always violent", when it comes to religions.
I agree when you say that too many Muslims are stuck in the past and glorify all the wrong things about their past. But many don't, and it's certainly not some kind of historical requirement that Islam cannot be moderated by the wheel of history like other religions.
Well both Muslim and Islamic refer to their religion. There are millions of Muslims in the U.S. who practice their religion and are not terrorists and live here peacefully. What does religion have to do with anything?
This is a pretty uninformed and generalizing opinion. But don't worry, many Americans are not good at differentiating.
Islam was not really solely responsible for the math and other advancements. It was a merger of Christianity, Islam and Judaism that created the advanced knowledge. It was only when Islam was allowed to be open in its short time in Europe was that it was ever sophisticated truly and even then that was due to the tolerant atmosphere of an alliance with Christians and Jews, not just Islam. Islam in its homelands has never been particularly sophisticated beyond a few ultra powerful elites and their small cadre's. Islam never created a vast, large educated population ever in its homelands. Never. It still has not done this to this day.
Turkey is a "Wannabe secular Ultra Conservative society" that is only falling deeper into Islamic primordialism.
Iran is a "Once great society that is now plagued by primordial Islam" and is on the same path as Turkey except worse so.
Saudi Arabia is the epicenter of "Primordial Islamic Backwards Insanity" and will be smothered in violent Islamic revolutions in the future.
Lebanon is lost and doomed by primordial Islam.
Israel's very existence is on a set timer of inevitable unfathomable doom and mass death via being surrounded by Islamic primordialism that will get far worse in the future.
Iraq as a country (which was always illogical geographically) is crumbling and will cease to exist in 50 years thanks to primordial Islam.
Pakistan is a "Mass lunatic Society of Islam" and will be an even more horrifically awful Islamic cesspool of chaos in the future than it already is if that's even fathomable.
Egypt and its oligarchy are fooling themselves. That country is doomed to Islamists and the Generals stalling of that fate is not sustainable long term. The Pyramids will be destroyed by Islamists one day.
India is going to have civil nuclear war over Islam with Pakistan in the future. Hundreds of millions will die.
Jordan is merely an oligarchy that "Buys Off" the Islamist clerics. It's a fake country for all intensive purposes.
Yemen will break up.
Saudi royals will be butchered by Islamists one day.
However, what you find is that Muslims too are just people. And when they're living together with people of a different faith and different values over a longer period of time, many Muslims too are going to adopt some elements of their environment. For example, I know a couple of Muslim women who decided to take off their scarf and have sex before marriage, to the horror of their parents, because that's what they witnessed living here in a Western country and they wanted to do the same as their non-Muslim peers.
And even if these Muslims who get influenced by Western way of life are just 20%, or 30%, or 40% -- that's enough to warrant the statement that "Muslims in general are not the problem". Islam maybe is, but Muslims in general aren't.
There was also an extensive study about the attitudes of Muslims in three dozen different Muslim countries, and it yielded a similar result: The most moderate, most compatible with Western values Muslims lived in Bosnia and Albania (sourrounded by Christian and atheist neighbors for centuries), and in former Soviet republics (apparently, 70 years of anti-religious communism was good for one thing, at least).
By backlash, I did not mean organized policies in favor of a more selective and restrictive immigration. As far as I am concerned, when a Muslim immigrant refuses to accept the constitution and its values, kick him out. I mean angry non-Muslim people shooting random Muslims over parking lots, arson attacks on mosques, KKK-like manhunts and discrimination in everyday life. This is has all happened and is still happening, i.e. in Europe.
Creating such an atmosphere of mutual distrust and hatred is exactly Al Qaida's strategy -- has it been in Iraq too, btw: Attack the Europeans so often, until they're reactng in a backlash way. In return, Muslims in Western countries will feel more threatened and recruitment for Al Qaida will be easier among them.
[/QUOTE]Even if half of the Muslims are idiots, it's still a human duty to judge them individually, when we meet them. That's not just basic decency, it's also necessary for a constructive approach of the problem.
Do you dare to condescend to Americans? I could think of some pretty damned ripe things to say about the country you apparently live in, if I chose to. Any time you want to cross swords with this American on any issue whatever, come ahead, sir.
This was a reply to SBu who chose to insult Europeans.
Don't worry, I like Americans.
(...)
I voted "yes", but that was assuming that their terrorist acts are connected to their religion. As it perhaps is, in most cases. When someone commits an act of terrorism in the name of an islamist organization, of course his religion matters.
But assuming there is a case a person who happens to be Muslim participates in a terrorist act with an entirely unrelated agenda -- say, for animal protection, or for communism --, then I don't think his religion matters. It would only result in false conclusions if his religion was emphasized, in that case.
No need to spam me with all that crap. We've chewed threw all these lurid British tabloid stories ad nauseum in the Europe forum for ages.
If you're truly interested, not in just confirming your preconceived opinions, but in actually looking at numbers, you can start here:
The World
You'll find that the numbers are bad enough, but pretty much in line what I said above. Unfortunately, there are no numbers on Muslims living in Western countries.
If you happen to speak German or if you can use an online translation tool, I'd recommend the Bertelsmann Religionsmonitor. Google it.
Apart from that, I get a very aggressive and hateful vibe from you, and you're mixing arguments which perhaps have merit with a lot of sinister accusations and imputations, and you ignore most of the points I made. You've left serious debate and now appear like some lurid tabloid. That's too much for me now, I'm tired and frankly can't stand this level of debate anymore. Because I think human beings deserve better than this.
Hope you're reading the numbers I pointed you to.
That is a childishly obvious failure of logic. Really shameful in fact.