• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did the US use democracy as a pretext to stifle the rise of Russia Eurasianism?

Did the US use democracy as a pretext to stifle the rise of Russia Eurasianism?

  • Total voters
    12
DaveFagan said:
Once again, I feel shame for what multiNational Corporations have
turned the USA into.
Click to expand...

Here's another interesting Ariel Cohen quote from 2001

Ukraine's next Premier must be acceptable to the investor community, including Western investors.
Click to expand...
 
joko104 said:
Ukraine is the critical element for Russia to return to being a mega-power far more than EU countries.
Click to expand...

I think that their present goals are to form another pole of power that has parity with the United States, as opposed to dominating the EU. Of course, if the opportunity presented itself, they would likely take it.
 
MildSteel said:
Here's another interesting Ariel Cohen quote from 2001
Click to expand...
Since you are so fond of quoting Ariel Cohen, here are a few more for you. And these were penned *before* Putin's invasions of Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

July - 2011

For many years, Russian diplomats have openly proclaimed that the former Soviet republics that make up the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) are not truly sovereign states. Russian analysts have stated that Russia regards the Obama Administration’s “reset” policy as a U.S. admission that the CIS is within Russia’s sphere of influence. It is clear that Washington needs a new approach to Eurasian foreign policy to prevent an emergence of a Russian sphere of influence or another regional hegemony. The United States should boost its diplomatic support of sovereign states, such as Ukraine and Georgia, and expand a real commitment to the region. Specifically, Washington should provide political support to East–West energy pipelines and uphold sovereignty and territorial integrity under international law—even if this upsets Russia.
Click to expand...
Reset Regret: U.S. Should Rethink Relations with Russian Leaders

June - 2013
Today, Moscow’s attempts to define the rules of the Eurasian geopolitical game are adversely affecting U.S. interests. The Kremlin is excluding American security and economic interests by using force, covert action, corruption, and non-customs trade barriers and by undermining the rule of law. Russia will attempt to construct its own ideology and define its sphere of influence in opposition to free market, liberal values and their champions—Europe and the U.S.
Click to expand...
Russia’s Eurasian Union Could Endanger The Neighborhood And US Interests
 
Since the village idiot has mentioned Syria, here's some things of interest:

From 2013

Moreover, for the past two and a half years, Russia has been America’s major opponent around the world, from Syria to Iran to Europe.
Click to expand...

Here's a little more in depth from a 2007 piece

Although re-establishment of ties between Russia and Syria began in 1998, Syrian President Bashar Assad's January 2005 visit to Moscow proved to be a turning point, as Russia made a decision to write off 73 percent ($10 billion) of Syria's total debt of $13.4 billion. A sale of the Strelets air defense missile sys*tem was concluded the same year despite protests from Israel and the United States. At the time of the sale, Putin denied Syria's request for more robust air defense missiles, such as S-300 and Igla, and for the short-range ballistic missile Iskander-E, which some analysts interpreted as a demonstration of sensitivity to Israeli security concerns.

In the meantime, Syria was supplying Hezbollah with Russian weapons. In 2006, Israeli forces found evidence of Russian-made Kornet-E and Metis-M anti-tank systems in Hezbollah's possession in southern Lebanon. In February 2007, Russia responded to accusations of arming terrorist groups by announcing inspections of Syrian weapons storage facilities with the goal of preventing the weapons from reaching unintended customers.

For several years, Russia has been attempting to engage in military cooperation with both Israel and Syria. However, the levels of cooperation with the two states are inversely related, and escalating arms sales to Syria can only damage the relationship with Israel. Russian-Syrian military cooperation went through numerous stages, from high levels of cooperation during the Soviet era to virtually no cooperation after the Cold War, until 2005 when Russia began to attempt to balance its relationships with Israel and Syria. However, Russia's recent return to the Middle East might indicate that Moscow is prepared to enter a new stage of military cooperation with Syria, even to the detriment of its relationship with Israel.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.

What is likely happening here is that Russia is engaged in a delicate balancing act. On the one hand it needs to counter U.S. power in the Middle East which requires it to lend some support to Assad and Iran. Sensing this, Israel has reached out to Russia. Which results, on the other hand, that it needs to soften such support to satisfy Israel.

Here's a couple of pieces of interest in this regard

U.S. officials angry: Israel doesn’t back stance on Russia

White House and State Department officials in Washington have built up a great deal of anger over Jerusalem's "neutrality" regarding Russia's invasion of the Crimean Peninsula. Senior figures in the Obama administration have expressed great disappointment with the lack of support from Israel for the American position on the Ukraine crisis and with the fact that the Israeli government puts its relations with the United States and with Russia on the same plane.

One senior U.S. official noted that one of the reasons for the anger in the White House was Israel's absence from the UN General Assembly vote about two weeks ago on a resolution censuring the Russian invasion and expressing support for the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

“We have been consulting closely on Ukraine not only with our partners and allies around the world," a senior U.S. official told Haaretz. "Obviously we are looking to the entire international community to condemn Russia’s actions and to support Ukraine, so we were surprised to see that Israel did not join the large majority of countries that voted to support Ukraine’s territorial integrity at the United Nations.”
Click to expand...

and


Netanyahu calls Putin, takes neutral stance on Ukraine
 
Simpleχity;1064269628 said:
But you conveniently neglected to post them. I believe this is called cherry-picking.
Click to expand...

I think I may have posted something from at least one of the pieces. Mr Cohen has said some pretty heavy duty stuff. I quoted him verbatim and chose what I thought relevant. Again, I would have actually posted links so that people could read the pieces at length, but first of all many people would not, next of all I knew that the would be a lot of derision here from insincere people so I didn't think it necessary. But like I said, in the future, I will indeed post the links so that anyone who wants can read the whole thing free from any influence of mine. Fair enough?
 
MildSteel said:
I think I may have posted something from at least one of the pieces. Mr Cohen has said some pretty heavy duty stuff. I quoted him verbatim and chose what I thought relevant. Again, I would have actually posted links so that people could read the pieces at length, but first of all many people would not, next of all I knew that the would be a lot of derision here from insincere people so I didn't think it necessary. But like I said, in the future, I will indeed post the links so that anyone who wants can read the whole thing free from any influence of mine. Fair enough?
Click to expand...
Fair indeed. Just be aware that the foreign policy thoughts of Ariel Cohen have within the past five years diverged significantly from his thoughts of over a decade ago.
 
DaveFagan said:
That's why we have military bases in 150 or so foreign Nations.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. An embassy with a Marine Security detachment is now a military base.

That's why we have initiated wars in dozens of Nations
Click to expand...

No, we did that not because we were super duper competent (although that is why the US federal government is run so efficiently), but rather because the Skull and Bones Society made a deal with the Templars to do so in revenge against the Catholic Church for suppressing the bloodline of Jesus, which, if it was discovered, would prove he was an alien working with the Roman version of the FBI, who are still running operations from the Vatican.

Goebbels revealed the use of the MSM as a Machiavellian tool for control and it's working well on your psyche, eh?
Click to expand...

:) Nah. I'm just not naïve enough to believe in grand conspiracy theories :).
 
Simpleχity;1064269692 said:
Fair indeed. Just be aware that the foreign policy thoughts of Ariel Cohen have within the past five years diverged significantly from his thoughts of over a decade ago.
Click to expand...

I think I said it elsewhere, but his harsh criticism of Putin has remained constant over the years.
 
cpwill said:
That's interesting. An embassy with a Marine Security detachment is now a military base.



No, we did that not because we were super duper competent (although that is why the US federal government is run so efficiently), but rather because the Skull and Bones Society made a deal with the Templars to do so in revenge against the Catholic Church for suppressing the bloodline of Jesus, which, if it was discovered, would prove he was an alien working with the Roman version of the FBI, who are still running operations from the Vatican.



:) Nah. I'm just not naïve enough to believe in grand conspiracy theories :).
Click to expand...

CPWILL, ol' buddy, you've given me the best laugh of the year. Do you realize how diametrically opposed
to reality and facts your statements are? It's the Conspiracy facts that should bother you as I didn't state
anything else. Just the facts, Jack.
 
Because the West is so often portrayed as materialistic and corrupt, many Eurasianists advocate closer cooperation with China, the Arab world, and Iran while espousing anti-Turkic rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Lmao, well, perception is reality.

And they wonder why they suffer.
 
DaveFagan said:
CPWILL, ol' buddy, you've given me the best laugh of the year. Do you realize how diametrically opposed
to reality and facts your statements are? It's the Conspiracy facts that should bother you as I didn't state
anything else. Just the facts, Jack.
Click to expand...

Dude. You claimed that the US overthrew the government of Ukraine. That's not a fact, it's a claim that you base off of "facts" - it's an assignment of meaning that, in fact you chose before you went in hunt of facts to match, and it indicates only that you are fairly naïve about the way in which the world actually functions. We are not interested and probably not competent to the machinations that you ascribe to us. There is no super-secret-giant-dominance-plan, man. There is, in fact, currently no plan at all. POTUS isn't really interested in all that "foreign policy stuff", except perhaps for a few mostly symbolic twitches against Israel. That's why we're reactive, it's why we are letting events shape our reaction rather than shaping events.

But, the idea of folks mostly just muddling through a complex world with unpredictable results and the usually semi-competent application of limited resources to semi-well defined goals doesn't fit well for those who need a simple worldview. That's why conspiracies are so powerful in their appeal. The naïve are attracted to them because they offer simple solutions, but really, the notion that the US is behind everything bad is no more intellectually rigorous than the idea that the US is behind everything good.
 
There is different types of evidence. If we had to rely on direct evidence for everything we would be lost.
 
MildSteel said:
There is different types of evidence. If we had to rely on direct evidence for everything we would be lost.
Click to expand...
The direct evidence of Russian involvement in Ukraine is indisputable, yet you say nothing of this and totally ignore it.

Rather then accept the obvious, you instead search for some indirect bludgeon to hammer the United States. Inexplicable.
 
Simpleχity;1064273248 said:
The direct evidence of Russian involvement in Ukraine is indisputable, yet you say nothing of this and totally ignore it.

Rather then accept the obvious, you instead search for some indirect bludgeon to hammer the United States. Inexplicable.
Click to expand...

You don't understand my motives. So please allow me to explain. I realize that Russia is involved in Ukraine. There is simply no other explanation for why the separatists have been able to put up such stiff resistance from the U.S. backed Ukrainian government. My problem with this is it will result in a nuclear war because Ukraine is simply a vital interest of Russia. Russia cannot survive as an strong, INDEPENDENT state if it is surrounded by NATO and is heavily dependent on western investment for it's survival.

Ariel Cohen's theory is essentially that Russia can be quite effectively contained by the following

1. NATO expansion
2. foreign investment in Russia
3. denying Russia the ability to influence European countries with it's energy resources
4. allowing NGOs in Russia to influence the political process there.

Ukraine is important because it plays a role in items 1 and 3. People like Putin naturally don't see things that way. Mr Cohen's theory is nice and is somewhat elegant. However, he is lost in his theory, and has not properly taken into account that Russia is a nuclear armed state that is capable of destroying the United States. As such, they can draw lines in Ukraine that the US if it decided to cross, it would do so at it's peril. And at that point, it affects me and my family. I don't care so much for myself, but I don't want to see my family destroyed because of a failure to look at the chessboard properly. Therefore I am saying these things. Does that make sense?
 
Last edited:
MildSteel said:
Russia cannot survive as an strong, INDEPENDENT state if it is surrounded by NATO and is heavily dependent on western investment for it's survival.
Click to expand...
Russia is a petro-state that has not diversified its economy. That is the fault of no one except Russia. Even so, western investment in Russia was significant until Crimea. Russia is a nuclear power and no one is going to invade. Surrounded by NATO? You'd better look at a map. Russia is the largest country in the world (nine time zones) and is nowhere near being "surrounded" by NATO.
 
Simpleχity;1064273312 said:
Russia is a petro-state that has not diversified its economy. That is the fault of no one except Russia. Even so, western investment in Russia was significant until Crimea. Russia is a nuclear power and no one is going to invade. Surrounded by NATO? You'd better look at a map. Russia is the largest country in the world (nine time zones) and is nowhere near being "surrounded" by NATO.
Click to expand...

Cherry picking I see.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom