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Jill Stein

Would You Consider A Vote For Jill Stein?

  • Only If My Preferred GOP Candidate Loses The Nomination

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    37
This may come as a shock to you, but I really don't care who you think I should and should not support.

Great. It's still a thread that's public to all members and I answered your question. I asked one of my own because I found an element of it bizarre. I still do. It's not "black and white" as there are multiple parameters involved in looking at a candidate; left vs. right alone does not cut it, especially since that is merely an economic consideration. How much authority you want to give the government also matters. Foreign policy also matters. I guess economic considerations just don't matter as much to you.

Okay. Your response was a bit harsher than my question warrants. If you don't like my tone, then let's be frank - you have liked to question my bonafides as a libertarian in other threads. Well, the LP is a strongly rightist, uncompromising free market party. That's why I like it. The mainstream GOP gives lip service to libertarian ideas but doesn't follow through.

To be frank, there is a much larger percentage of libertarians that agree with me on that single wedge issue in which we vocally disagree - by virtue of the DoI's declaration of unalienable, individual human rights and the central axiom of non-aggression - than there are a percentage of libertarians who could ever support someone advocating for collectivist economics. And that makes sense, because see above - individual human rights. Individualism is important to the LP, it's given lip service by the GOP at large, and it's vehemently opposed by everyone else.

I am wavering between Gary Johnson and Jill Stein. Why? Because they are the same on most social issues (gay rights, pro choice, legalize drugs, etc.)

I doubt Jill Stein supports overturning Roe v. Wade because she supports federalism and the Constitution as written; Gary Johnson does. That's hardly the same. Speaking as someone who lives in a state that has a legal ban on the books that was specifically violated by that court case because of a lie 7 men perpetrated about the contents of our Constitution, that's a rather large gulf between them, and it certainly makes a difference to me, because it means appointments to SCotUS would actually do their ****ing job instead of spitting on it.

civil rights (abolish ndaa/patriot act, reign in nsa, stop racial profiling, demilitarize police, etc)

Okay, yeah, those are libertarian notions, and that's part of why I support the GOP primary candidate I do (and potentially Gary Johnson afterwards). This is also a case of the mainstream members of one major party giving lip service to these notions but not following through, but it's the leftist party this time.

On the same point, I am both socialist and pro-gun.

Okay, so it's all about priorities. I get that. You are socialist but economics isn't that important to you. You are pro-gun, but the Second Amendment just isn't that important to you.

I understand, because that's how I feel about gay marriage; it does matter to me because freedom of contract is important and the government should not be involved in issuing licenses, but in the big picture, since it only affects so few people and in such a minor way, it matters less to me than probably anything else, far less of a priority to me than life or death matters like gungrabbers trying to eliminate my right to self-defense or socialists trying to violate everyone's right to property.

I am for both helping the poor and for ending or at least shrinking most national bureaucracies.

Now that is absolutely not possible. Socialist entitlement programs demand a bloated bureaucratic infrastructure. Leviathan, thy name be "the welfare state."

If you want to help the poor but you want to shrink the size of government; well, that's why us libertarians believe in voluntary private charity.

I am for both unions and homeschooling.

Ehh. Being for unions can theoretically work for a libertarian if they are strongly freedom of contract and don't mind unions' collectivist bent, I guess. What's bad is when the government coerces private businesses into making that sort of contract under duress, which is why I'm glad I live in a "right to work" state.


So I get what you're saying. You've explained it so that it kind of sort of makes sense. Your priorities are what they are, and they are such that right vs. left doesn't actually mean much to you. Got it.
 
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Anyone who complains about current gridlock can't support Stein with much credibility. Both her and the Green's platform is a comical wishlist that wouldn't even garner support from Democrats, let alone two Republican controlled houses.
 
Anyone who complains about current gridlock can't support Stein with much credibility. Both her and the Green's platform is a comical wishlist that wouldn't even garner support from Democrats, let alone two Republican controlled houses.

That is in issue all to itself. You have two parties that are similar in nature, so similiar when our president uses the other party's ideas from their very own platform, that party still refuses to compromise. As illustrated, it doesn't come down to compromise at all. It comes down to red team vs blue and it's wreaking havoc on our country. The cherry on top is big industry still wins with their hand picked choice. Many people are fed up with the entire system and the rampant corruption. The current system is designed to maintain the status quo for those who buy politicians.
 
Having knowledge on something means having read Wikipedia? :lamo

Let me clarify for you. Having knowledge does not mean you read Wikipedia. But you don't have any real tangible knowledge, you have about the information one would find on Wikipedia. You know the names of a couple philosophies, who thought them up, and a couple one-liners. but you don't actually understand left-libertarian ideas.

Tell that to fellow libertarians who believe that the foundation of all rights lies in property rights.

Some believe that, some don't. :shrug:

To call something quantifiable like economic liberty "propaganda" is just disingenuous.

It's a buzzword used to shut down conversation. Oh, you don 't agree with me? You must hate liberty.

It's propaganda.

Only someone with a tyrant trapped within them would deny someone the ability to enter into contracts freely and the fruits of their labor,

I'm fine with contracts and the entire reason I am a socialist is because I want people to be able to keep te fruits of their labor. I want workers to be paid what their labor is worth. That's pretty much the backbone of socialist ideas.

and force them to belong to some workers' collective, which is what left-libertarianism is all about.

:roll:

And yes, it takes everything away from what you said, because it exposes how the Greens having nothing in common with libertarians.

You literally nitpicked two miniscule parts from the platform. That doesn't prove ****.

Libertarianism in the US has always translated to fiscal conservatism and social liberalism.

The political party has, yes.

People with your views usually identify as socialist.

Yes, I am a socialist. But socialism is an economic school of thought, not a political philosophy. It has no inherent position on other issues. Hence why socialists can be so diverse ranging from socially conservative to anarchist to libertarian to totalitarian. According to the political compass and similar charts, left/right is economics and up/down (authoritarian/libertarian) is social and civil issues. I occupy the bottom-left quadrant. Left-Libertarianism. That may offend you or whatever, but shockingly not everyone sees everything in binary as you do.

They'll have a hard time attracting votes from libertarians when their rhetoric is anti-gun rights, pro big government and anti property rights (and private enterprise in general). Is that hard to understand?

Well, that simply doesn't translate to real life. Libertarians and Greens have allied on many key issues, and votes have fluctuated between the two regularly.

I'll once again stress what I said at the beginning of this debate: you're not a libertarian. So frankly you have no place telling those that are what they believe and who they should vote for.
 
Anyone who complains about current gridlock can't support Stein with much credibility. Both her and the Green's platform is a comical wishlist that wouldn't even garner support from Democrats, let alone two Republican controlled houses.

This is why any third party would need to build a base of House/Senate people first. A third party President with zero allies in Congress would get nowhere. In fact, the Dems and Reps would probably gang up and pass a bunch of veto-proof legislation. "Common enemy" and all that.
 
But in order to get into office, you have to have a message that appeals to people willing to give you money. This is not the case with third parties, they have a message that appeals to a minuscule minority of people with no money, it's no wonder they fail. Our political system is messed up to be sure, but third parties are just not doing anything to get themselves money, power or votes. They're just wasting everyone's time.

This seems to be a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg. No one knows what the message is of a Jill Stein or a Gary Johnson because they do not have the money to get it out. The voters have no idea what the message is these two or any other third party is spouting. Since they can't get their message out, they can't raise money to get their message out. The voter has no idea what their message is, hence they can't adhere to it and can't abhor it.

Only those who are truly fed up with the two major parties actually look at third party candidates. Then the vast majority of them end up voting for the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidate among the two major parties. They do this because they buy into the mantra that a vote for a third party candidate is a wasted vote because they can't win. So they vote for a candidate they do not want in order to prevent the other candidate they want even less from winning.

It boils down to whom do you hate less among the two parties, not whom you like or whom you think would make the best president.

Chicken or the egg, catch 22, whatever. Take your choice.
 
That's very common in American political history. Third parties are usually parties of only one or two ideas, and if those ideas become popular and the Big 2 adopt them (in some form), the third party ceases to be relevant.

Yep, that is usually the way it works.
 
This seems to be a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg. No one knows what the message is of a Jill Stein or a Gary Johnson because they do not have the money to get it out. The voters have no idea what the message is these two or any other third party is spouting. Since they can't get their message out, they can't raise money to get their message out. The voter has no idea what their message is, hence they can't adhere to it and can't abhor it.

I disagree. Politically savvy people know what their message is, they just reject it. I know what they stand for, I've looked into it, I just want no part of it. I think they are better known than you think, it's just another excuse given for why they lose so badly.
 
I disagree. Politically savvy people know what their message is, they just reject it. I know what they stand for, I've looked into it, I just want no part of it. I think they are better known than you think, it's just another excuse given for why they lose so badly.

I think what you are looking at is political savvy people whom abide on this site and others. I do not think you are looking at the average voter or Joe Blow. Most independents do not pay one iota to the operations over government until a couple of weeks before an election. Candidates are the same with them and they make up 40% of the electorate. A lot of them base there vote on a slogan they heard on TV, which one looks more presidential, which party their parents belonged to and so on.

I think you would be surprised if the money was relative even how these people would vote. Of course Republicans are going to vote Republican and Democrats Democratic. On average 93% of those who identify with either major party votes for their candidates regardless of whom they are.


Think about Perot’s vote in 1992, back then 33% of the electorate identified with the Democrats, 27% with the Republicans and 40% were independents, according to Pew Research. Clinton received 43% of the vote, Bush the first 38% and Perot 19%. So if as history shows 93% of those who identify with the two major parties voted for them in 1992, that means independents broke around 25% for Clinton, 25% for Bush the first and 50% for Perot. Rough figures since both Clinton and Bush the first received 10% above those who associate with their parties, Perot the rest with 40% of the electorate making up the independent ranks.

Perot’s message resonated enough to convince half of all independents to vote for him. More would have if he hadn’t pulled that stupid stunt of getting out and then back in. There are a lot of independents looking for someone else, anyone else besides the two major party nominees. Perot had some money, Johnson and Stein had none.

But it does seem we will have to agree to disagree. For any third party to be viable, it not only has to win over independents, but has to take away from those who now affiliate with the two major parties.
 
I disagree. Politically savvy people know what their message is, they just reject it. I know what they stand for, I've looked into it, I just want no part of it. I think they are better known than you think, it's just another excuse given for why they lose so badly.


as evidenced by the fact that on a website (in principle) dedicated to debating politics, you have posters who don't know who she is.
 
Anyone who complains about current gridlock can't support Stein with much credibility. Both her and the Green's platform is a comical wishlist that wouldn't even garner support from Democrats, let alone two Republican controlled houses.


wait, we were assured earlier that the Greens are just "more extreme Democrats"
 
I'm fine with contracts and the entire reason I am a socialist is because I want people to be able to keep te fruits of their labor. I want workers to be paid what their labor is worth. That's pretty much the backbone of socialist ideas.

"What labor is worth" is set by market forces. Socialists absolutely despise market forces and wish to impose price floors on wages such as the minimum wage. If you supported free contracts, you'd support workers accepting below some arbitrary figure of what you consider the "worth" of labor. People should be free to accept any wage they like. That's a libertarian notion.

Labor theory of value has long been discredited, btw.


You literally nitpicked two miniscule parts from the platform. That doesn't prove ****.

Yeah, you're right, mentioning the absolute bedrock on which their policies are formed is nitpicking.

I think it's pretty damn significant that the Greens desire to dictate how our economy is structured. Sounds like big government bull**** to me and very unfriendly to entrepreneurs.

The political party has, yes.

Libertarianism in the U.S is larger in scope than its representation by the Libertarian Party. It's a real tradition stretching back to the Founders (classical liberalism) and other great minds who inspired them. Never has libertarianism in the U.S meant the socialist claptrap Chomsky and others espouse.


Yes, I am a socialist. But socialism is an economic school of thought, not a political philosophy. It has no inherent position on other issues. Hence why socialists can be so diverse ranging from socially conservative to anarchist to libertarian to totalitarian. According to the political compass and similar charts, left/right is economics and up/down (authoritarian/libertarian) is social and civil issues. I occupy the bottom-left quadrant. Left-Libertarianism. That may offend you or whatever, but shockingly not everyone sees everything in binary as you do.

TeleKat. Socialism has never existed as a "libertarian philosophy". I like talking about what's real, not the ideal. All socialism's known forms have devolved into the worst authoritarianism and tyranny known to history. The blood spilled from its violent revolutions, purges, gulags and agitations has stained the pages of the 20th century. And I wonder why? Because the "righteous" intentions of the socialists clash with their imperfect nature as humans; in no way can socialism be achieved without coercion.

I haven't even addressed how liberty is incompatible with socialism fundamentally, the so-called theoretical part of the debate. We can see from history how socialism devolves into tyranny, but in theory could it work? No. The reason is that socialism demands central planning, a confiscation of the wealth of private individuals to fund their initiatives, and thus, on principle, cannot sustain itself without coercing individual citizens. Coercion being the use of force or threat of force to achieve means. If individuals are free to the fruits of their labor, free to write and sign contracts, send their goods over borders and speak their mind, then they cannot be any form of socialist vanguard, or "community organization" that seeks to uplift the poor or whatnot, because that would infringe on the aforementioned freedoms demanded by libertarians.

"Even the striving for equality by means of a directed economy can result only in an officially enforced inequality - an authoritarian determination of the status of each individual in the new hierarchical order." - Hayek

Equality by definition requires authoritarian means because in a free world inequalities would arise out of differences in natural ability and motivation.

I'll once again stress what I said at the beginning of this debate: you're not a libertarian. So frankly you have no place telling those that are what they believe and who they should vote for.

I once was a libertarian, and I still lean pretty libertarian. How about addressing my critiques instead of attacking my character? Typical diversion tactic.
 
I like her anti-establishment tone, and did support her during her last run until I found Gary Johnson. Stein is simply too liberal for my liking.
 
I like her anti-establishment tone, and did support her during her last run until I found Gary Johnson. Stein is simply too liberal for my liking.
My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.
 
My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.

Yeah, and I don't want that.
 
as evidenced by the fact that on a website (in principle) dedicated to debating politics, you have posters who don't know who she is.

Just because they're on this website doesn't mean they are politically savvy, lots of people around here are clueless.
 
My take on her is that she wants to replace the established establishment with her own establishment.


true-rich lefty elitists whine about the elite when what they really want is to be top dog
 
true-rich lefty elitists whine about the elite when what they really want is to be top dog

how does that differ from rich republicans?
 
how does that differ from rich republicans?

not much at all other than rich republicans don't tend to whine about the rich or pander to the envious
 
not much at all other than rich republicans don't tend to whine about the rich or pander to the envious

No, rich Republicans just screech about how the evil liberals are coming to take all their money and give it to the dirty poors.
 
No, rich Republicans just screech about how the evil liberals are coming to take all their money and give it to the dirty poors.

and that has a basis in fact and is not hypocritical
 
If she had a real shot to win, absolutely.
 
No, rich Republicans just screech about how the evil liberals are coming to take all their money and give it to the dirty poors.

And in what way is that not an objective statement?
 
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