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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
iliveonramen said:
I wouldn't walk away from 10,000 underwater either. There are places that saw a 60-70% drop in home prices. That's a little different than owing say 300,000 on a 120,000 dollar house.


The vast majority of foreclosures are a result of lost jobs, family illness, or too much accumulated debt. Strategic foreclosures were typically much more rare and only done in higher income neighborhoods where the values dropped the most.

Not to mention...a large portion of those strategic defaults were speculators.
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The "strategic defaults" were immoral whether they were by you speculating that the more house you can buy the richer you will be when you retire - or whether it was some other guy speculating on it. In no other "speculation" game do you get to pull your money back out of the pot when you have a busted hand. When you borrow money to buy a house, there is no condition that if the house doesn't turn out to be worth as much as you paid for it some day that you can just let the bank take the house and call it even. That's NOT the agreement you make.
 
iliveonramen said:
That's not true. Unless you've ever been faced with a situation where your house was extremely underwater answering one way or another on a website doesn't answer any questions on character. Maybe Liberals are just more introspective and truthful with what they would do? It seems as if every conservative on here has a knee jerk reaction "I'd be paying back all 300k on a 2 dollar house!" when in reality they would literally run from that house.
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I believe the question was "do you have a moral obligation to repay money you borrow". It doesn't matter what the value of the house is, you are obligated to pay back the loan.

Do people walk away from car loans? The loan is typically way more than the car is worth just one month later.

So, should the value of the collateral be the deciding factor? If so, political ideology might need to become an underwriting standard, so morally challenged people don't screw up the economy again.
 
justabubba said:
no
what i am showing is that there is a business issue versus a moral issue
and regarding the underwater mortgage, there is no moral issue
only a business decision
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So (as I said) your answer to the question is simply "no". You do not believe there is a moral obligation to pay back money you borrow.


What did you do in government, again?
 
cpwill said:
So (as I said) your answer to the question is simply "no". You do not believe there is a moral obligation to pay back money you borrow.


What did you do in government, again?
Click to expand...

among other things, liquidation/recovery of government and government guaranteed loans
notably, defaulting debtors were not seen as immoral borrowers
one indication we were too rigid in our underwriting processes was a very low default rate, indicating too conservative approval criteria
 
Papa bull said:
The "strategic defaults" were immoral whether they were by you speculating that the more house you can buy the richer you will be when you retire - or whether it was some other guy speculating on it. In no other "speculation" game do you get to pull your money back out of the pot when you have a busted hand. When you borrow money to buy a house, there is no condition that if the house doesn't turn out to be worth as much as you paid for it some day that you can just let the bank take the house and call it even. That's NOT the agreement you make.
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You are making broad generalizations. The fact is, how confident are you of the individuals that say they would pay off their home would continue to pay it off if say...the mortgage was 400k and they could find a similar house near the same neighborhood for 200k? Maybe the Liberals in this thread are more realistic?
 
justabubba said:
among other things, liquidation/recovery of government and government guaranteed loans
notably, defaulting debtors were not seen as immoral borrowers
one indication we were too rigid in our underwriting processes was a very low default rate, indicating too conservative approval criteria
Click to expand...

Working for the government, you didn't see defaulting on debt as immoral and if you had a low default rate, it just meant that government policies weren't making sure banks were giving enough loans to people who couldn't pay them off. And we wonder what the hell is wrong with our government, don't we?
 
iliveonramen said:
You are making broad generalizations. The fact is, how confident are you of the individuals that say they would pay off their home would continue to pay it off if say...the mortgage was 400k and they could find a similar house near the same neighborhood for 200k? Maybe the Liberals in this thread are more realistic?
Click to expand...

Or more dishonest. "Well screw the bank, I'm not paying my loan because I think I can get a better deal now". I suppose more people would be willing to sell their integrity for 200K than they would for a piddling 25 or 30K, huh? What's your integrity worth? How much would you sell out for?
 
ocean515 said:
I believe the question was "do you have a moral obligation to repay money you borrow". It doesn't matter what the value of the house is, you are obligated to pay back the loan.

Do people walk away from car loans? The loan is typically way more than the car is worth just one month later.

So, should the value of the collateral be the deciding factor? If so, political ideology might need to become an underwriting standard, so morally challenged people don't screw up the economy again.
Click to expand...
I'm sure most banks operate based on what people would do in order to further their own self interest rather than what they say they would do.
 
Papa bull said:
Business is amoral. BEHAVIOR, however, is not. Do you really want to argue that if your boss refuses to pay you what you are due that it is NOT immoral? Or that if a business dumps poison in your well knowingly that they did nothing immoral? Rationalizing that you can lie, cheat or steal without being immoral if you just say that whoever you screwed is amoral - so it's OK....

Seriously, that's the disconnect with the human "conscience" that is the defining characteristic of sociopathy. Are we becoming a nation of sociopaths?
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Two amoral entities can still work together to accomplish something that benefits both of them. In fact, it happens every day. The modern economy couldn't exist without such relationships.
 
iliveonramen said:
I'm sure most banks operate based on what people would do in order to further their own self interest rather than what they say they would do.
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It's been my experience that most banks operate on what people say they are going to do as evidenced by the signed documents that are involved.

There is also little doubt they must also assume there is a percentage of their business which will be conducted with people of little character. I am also certain they must account for a best guess percentage of their loans that will indeed end up in default despite everyone's best efforts.
 
DifferentDrummr said:
Two amoral entities can still work together to accomplish something that benefits both of them. In fact, it happens every day. The modern economy couldn't exist without such relationships.
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And as I said before, the fact that an entity is amoral does not mean that the behavior of that entity is beyond moral judgement. We both know that you would consider it very immoral for the "amoral" business that employs you to tell you it's decided not to pay for the work that it agreed to pay you for. If you enter into a bargain and you don't hold up your end, you are behaving immorally and it's just nonsense to rationalize that if you do it in the course of business, that business is amoral and, therefore, screwing someone by not holding up your end of the deal you both agreed to isn't immoral for you.

If you want to claim that businesses cannot act in an immoral way, just say it so I can cut that quote out and make myself a signature line that looks like this:

DifferentDrummer said:
Businesses never engage in immoral behavior.
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Go ahead and confirm that quote for me. Thanks.
 
Papa bull said:
Or more dishonest. "Well screw the bank, I'm not paying my loan because I think I can get a better deal now". I suppose more people would be willing to sell their integrity for 200K than they would for a piddling 25 or 30K, huh? What's your integrity worth? How much would you sell out for?
Click to expand...

Seeing as to how neither one of us has faced a situation where we owed significantly more than we owed that question would be tough to answer. It's rich how you are acting morally superior though. Talk is cheap.
 
ocean515 said:
It's been my experience that most banks operate on what people say they are going to do as evidenced by the signed documents that are involved.

There is also little doubt they must also assume there is a percentage of their business which will be conducted with people of little character. I am also certain they must account for a best guess percentage of their loans that will indeed end up in default despite everyone's best efforts.
Click to expand...

The less character, the higher the interest rate usually is... until the government steps in on behalf of deadbeats to demand that deadbeat, shiftless bastards with no character get low-interest loans with no downpayment, too.

Payday loans have ridiculously high interest rates because they know they are dealing with a ridiculously high percentage of customers that are immoral and of low character and will refuse to pay their debts unless someone threatens to break their legs or shoot out their kneecaps (and not even then if they can flee, instead).
 
ocean515 said:
It's been my experience that most banks operate on what people say they are going to do as evidenced by the signed documents that are involved.

There is also little doubt they must also assume there is a percentage of their business which will be conducted with people of little character. I am also certain they must account for a best guess percentage of their loans that will indeed end up in default despite everyone's best efforts.
Click to expand...

Hahaha! People of little character. Gotta love conservatives that tend to take credit for abstract moral questions. 97% of conservatives said that infidelity is very immoral. I'm sure that only 3% of conservatives cheat on their spouse....Conservatives also tend to not have pre-marital sex and never get abortions.
 
iliveonramen said:
Seeing as to how neither one of us has faced a situation where we owed significantly more than we owed that question would be tough to answer. It's rich how you are acting morally superior though. Talk is cheap.
Click to expand...

I dipped into my pocket and paid off mine instead of walking away. It's one thing if you CAN'T make the payments on a deal you agreed to. It's another completely if you chose not to because you would rather stick the bank with your bad investment than make good on your own agreement. If you don't see anything wrong with welshing on a loan just because you make out better by doing that, then it's not my moral superiority that is in play, but your moral inferority because that belief system is just plain immoral. Here's to me and f*** you. I better NEVER catch you arguing that businesses are immoral and are just out to screw people because that would make you nothing less than a complete hypocrite given that you think screwing people in business is all fine and good as long as you're the one doing the screwing.
 
Papa bull said:
Working for the government, you didn't see defaulting on debt as immoral and if you had a low default rate, it just meant that government policies weren't making sure banks were giving enough loans to people who couldn't pay them off. And we wonder what the hell is wrong with our government, don't we?
Click to expand...

again exposing your ignorance of finance and business
my federal agency was found to be a net revenue generator, where the return to tax coffers substantially exceeded the cost of our agency's operations
the amount of those loans that were not repaid were far exceeded by the tax receipts from the businesses and businesses' wage earners, which receipts would not have been possible but for the availability of the federal loans
being involved in that government effort to aid commercial activities allowed me to evolve from my ideology as a capital "L" Libertarian
and it was only a moral issue when we found instances of waste, fraud and/or abuse
the reality is that some businesses/borrowers are not going to make it
the key is to enable so many others to succeed that it more than offsets the losses of those failed attempts
you know, smart public policy
 
iliveonramen said:
Hahaha! People of little character. Gotta love conservatives that tend to take credit for abstract moral questions. 97% of conservatives said that infidelity is very immoral. I'm sure that only 3% of conservatives cheat on their spouse....Conservatives also tend to not have pre-marital sex and never get abortions.
Click to expand...

Conservatives may not live up to their values and when they don't, you can scream "hypocrite". But I think it's better to be in the group where some don't live up to the values they promote than to be in the group that has no values.
 
justabubba said:
again exposing your ignorance of finance and business
my federal agency was found to be a net revenue generator, where the return to tax coffers substantially exceeded the cost of our agency's operations
the amount of those loans that were not repaid were far exceeded by the tax receipts from the businesses and businesses' wage earners, which receipts would not have been possible but for the availability of the federal loans
being involved in that government effort to aid commercial activities allowed me to evolve from my ideology as a capital "L" Libertarian
and it was only a moral issue when we found instances of waste, fraud and/or abuse
the reality is that some businesses/borrowers are not going to make it
the key is to enable so many others to succeed that it more than offsets the losses of those failed attempts
you know, smart public policy
Click to expand...

And that policy led to the biggest financial crisis since the great depression. Congratulations on the wonderfulness of your federal agencies and the fact that they were profitable while the crap loans they packaged and then resold tanked the rest of the economy. You must be so proud.
 
justabubba said:
among other things, liquidation/recovery of government and government guaranteed loans
Click to expand...

As I recall, you were in the business of handing out government loans to companies who bought the right congresscritters were deserving examples of American enterprise.

So I find your blasé approach to whether or not lenders get paid back.... :shrug: Interesting. :)

notably, defaulting debtors were not seen as immoral borrowers
one indication we were too rigid in our underwriting processes was a very low default rate, indicating too conservative approval criteria
Click to expand...

:doh

So..... success indicates failure. Yeah. This logic sounds like government.
 
Papa bull said:
The less character, the higher the interest rate usually is... until the government steps in on behalf of deadbeats to demand that deadbeat, shiftless bastards with no character get low-interest loans with no downpayment, too.

Payday loans have ridiculously high interest rates because they know they are dealing with a ridiculously high percentage of customers that are immoral and of low character and will refuse to pay their debts unless someone threatens to break their legs or shoot out their kneecaps (and not even then if they can flee, instead).
Click to expand...

Good points.
 
iliveonramen said:
Hahaha! People of little character. Gotta love conservatives that tend to take credit for abstract moral questions. 97% of conservatives said that infidelity is very immoral. I'm sure that only 3% of conservatives cheat on their spouse....Conservatives also tend to not have pre-marital sex and never get abortions.
Click to expand...

I believe the question related to paying back loans, and whether someone has a moral obligation to do so. I guess admitting you are personally into infidelity, pre-marital sex, and abortions has some relevance to you, but I don't see it's relevance to the topic.
 
Papa bull said:
I dipped into my pocket and paid off mine instead of walking away. It's one thing if you CAN'T make the payments on a deal you agreed to. It's another completely if you chose not to because you would rather stick the bank with your bad investment than make good on your own agreement. If you don't see anything wrong with welshing on a loan just because you make out better by doing that, then it's not my moral superiority that is in play, but your moral inferority because that belief system is just plain immoral. Here's to me and f*** you. I better NEVER catch you arguing that businesses are immoral and are just out to screw people because that would make you nothing less than a complete hypocrite given that you think screwing people in business is all fine and good as long as you're the one doing the screwing.
Click to expand...

Businesses are immoral. The business world acts in a manner where transactions are arms length and each party acts in their own self interest. That's been my whole argument.....I'm not sure how stating the obvious makes me a hypocrite....
 
Papa bull said:
Conservatives may not live up to their values and when they don't, you can scream "hypocrite". But I think it's better to be in the group where some don't live up to the values they promote than to be in the group that has no values.
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I personally prefer the group that is more realistic about their actions. I'd rather hang around a self declared cheat than someone that claims to be pious and will cheat you blind.
 
ocean515 said:
I believe the question related to paying back loans, and whether someone has a moral obligation to do so. I guess admitting you are personally into infidelity, pre-marital sex, and abortions has some relevance to you, but I don't see it's relevance to the topic.
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I could of swore you had mentioned character in your response...let me check...yup...you did. You seem to judge character by what people say they will do. I generally judge people based on their actions.
 
iliveonramen said:
I could of swore you had mentioned character in your response...let me check...yup...you did. You seem to judge character by what people say they will do. I generally judge people based on their actions.
Click to expand...

LOL

I see. So how do you judge a person before you've had a chance to know their actions?
 
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