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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
This is a lie

Under the agreement that the lender freely entered into, the lender is obligated to accept the collateral to settle the loan. Their obligations do not end when they write a check and your desire to absolve them of their obligations is immoral.
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Its kind if amusing he has spent how many pages prattling on about morality and then lies (and its not even a good one)
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
There is no true entity to accept that promise just an entity born of paperwork and is not something organic. A business has no mind or soul so there is nothing to receive that promise.

What you ask is literally impossible to do. (I am of course assuming you want me to mean the words I say)
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What a load of semantic crap. Corporations are not people so morality does not apply to them? Ridiculous and convenient. Let me know how well that argument holds up in small claims court...lol.


You have never heard of one-person businesses? I run a run person business.


So I will ask you again - slightly differently - if you promise to pay back a one person company, does that make you feel more obligated to honor your promise...YES OR NO?
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
Well, it absolutely is a financial decision. Just as a business deciding to repay a loan is. Or a business deciding to cut employee hours so it doesn't have to give them health insurance. Or a business deciding to pay employees minimum wage that isn't livable. Or a business that overworks its employees.

If you want to talk about morality in financial decisions, I'm ready Papa Bull. You say the word... let's go.
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If you really want to talk about some of those issues you should probably understand that there are times in business where you do things because they must be done or to stay competitive. You can't really take wage rates up all that much as an individual employer in most cases, sorry. That is one reason wages don't jump up like liberals want them to.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

DA60 said:
What a load of semantic crap. Corporations are not people so morality does not apply to them? Ridiculous and convenient.


You have never heard of one-person businesses? I run a run person business.


So I will ask you again - slightly differently - if you promise to pay back a one person company, does that make you feel more obligated to honor your promise...YES OR NO?
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If you find truth to be such, that's your issue, not mine. I would treat a one person business differently as then I am dealing with a living being and it would take on that additional meaning.

If I make a promise to a living being, then yes I am obligated morally to keep it.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
This is a lie

Under the agreement that the lender freely entered into, the lender is obligated to accept the collateral to settle the loan.
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In afraid you are the one lying here. The lender must go to court and exercise legal options against you because you failed to meet YOUR obligations. The fact the can go after your property if you renege on your agreement isn't to be taken as an invitation to renege if it suits you. I'm not surprised to hear you rationalize it that way, though.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
There's nothing immoral about the borrower choosing an option that the lender agreed would satisfy the loan
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Flat out nonsense. A lender never agrees that relinquishing of the property under lien in the loan transaction "satisfies the loan". That's stupidity. The lender protects itself primarily by placing a lien on the property number one to ensure that immoral people such as you present don't sell the property to another and then abscond with the cash leaving the lender with nothing. They secondly are entitled to sue you for the balance of any outstanding principal not recaptured by sale of the collateral property. If you default on a mortgage, the lender can sell the home, realize the proceeds of that sale, and then sue you for any balance owing that remains. They don't just accept your transactional loss just because they loaned you funds to engage in that transaction.

The idiocy of the posts from those with limited or no morals is quite enlightening.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
If you find truth to be such, that's your issue, not mine. I would treat a one person business differently as then I am dealing with a living being and it would take on that additional meaning.

If I make a promise to a living being, then yes I am obligated morally to keep it. Your question is otherwise too broad to have any meaning.
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Because corporations aren't run by people. :lol:
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
Because corporations aren't run by people. :lol:
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Corporations may have employees but those employees are just employees and not the corporation itself. The actual corporation is just a legal fiction.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
If you find truth to be such, that's your issue, not mine. I would treat a one person business differently as then I am dealing with a living being and it would take on that additional meaning.

If I make a promise to a living being, then yes I am obligated morally to keep it.
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Okay, what about a two person business...same question? What if you promise both of them?

What about a privately owned franchise - run by only one person?

What if the owner of a small, family run business asks you to promise him personally that you will pay back the loan?

What if a bank manager - who is a family friend - asks you to personally promise (above and beyond the loan agreement) that you will pay the bank back?
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
So when it happens in the free market, your thoughts are???

Also, if we're getting into the practice of talking about morality in financial decisions, is now a good time to bring up worker rights and worker pay?
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If you want to deflect and hijack the thread for your particular agenda, it's not for me to stop you.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

DA60 said:
Okay, what about a two person business...same question? What if you promise both of them?

What about a privately owned franchise - run by only one person?

What if the owner of a small, family run business asks you to promise him personally that you will pay back the loan?

What if a bank manager - who is afamily friend - asks you to personally promise (above and beyond the loan agreement) that you will pay the bank back?
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1. I would feel morally obligated if I promised the owner
2. I would feel morally obligated
3. I would feel morally obligated
4. I would feel morally obligated so long as that manager remained employed there and could be harmed by my actions.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
In afraid you are the one lying here. The lender must go to court and exercise legal options against you because you failed to meet YOUR obligations.
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Foreclosure does not require the lender to go to court.

The lies are beginning to pile up
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
Flat out nonsense. A lender never agrees that relinquishing of the property under lien in the loan transaction "satisfies the loan".
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That is a flat out lie

In most loans, the lender agrees that the collateral will satisfy the loan.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
defaulting on a loan is not, in and of itself, fraudulent in any way.
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If you go into the transaction with the view, as espoused by you, that walking away is "satisfying" your obligations, then you are indeed entering into fraud. It is no different from those who sign a lease to rent a house or apartment, pay the first and last month rent, and then become squatters until evicted.

I'd love to see you apply for a loan of any sort and suggest to the lender your view on your obligations. You'd be escorted to the door fast and asked not to come back.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Corporations may have employees but those employees are just employees and not the corporation itself. The actual corporation is just a legal fiction.
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A corporation is a legal entity by defination, but it is also a business and like all businesses it is run by people.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
And it is widespread. This thread tells me that an inordinate amount of people don't consider it important to keep their word or fulfill obligations they accept. Their word means nothing and they cannot be trusted. It is all about integrity and character and this thread indicates that political lean is a good clue about those things.
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This thread saddens me. I guess it shouldn't, as I should be used to gross rationalizations, but it does.

People are bending over backwards to disassociate themselves from the act of borrowing. By their reasoning (spin, really), if the act of borrowing is a separate act, then it is "amoral" because a non-human act doesn't have a conscience. The non-human act can do whatever it wants. That leaves their conscience free and clear.

Problem is, the issue doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the act specifically, and everything to do with one's own promise to repay*. The promise on on YOU, and only you. They're only kidding themselves when they try to spin it away.

This mindset is not unlike the thinking behind civil asset forfeiture. The person doesn't have to be burdened with guilt/innocence. No, the property is guilty. This is the only way they... enforcers in this case... can spin it wildly enough to justify it in their own conscience.

Point 2: Prior to this thread I would not have guessed that political lean would be so definitive on an issue like this. That has been eye-opening.


*- Disclaimer: Dire circumstances requiring bankruptcy and similar not included. There are legitimate times when circumstances spin out of a person's control, but those are the exception, not the general rule.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
A corporation is a legal entity by defination, but it is also a business and like all businesses it is run by people.
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I just stated that. But it is an irrelevant detail as they are employees and not the corporation
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
My belief that people are, basically honest and good, is something I am going to have to reconsider.
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Quote for truth. Like I said in my previous post, this thread saddens me.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
If you go into the transaction with the view, as espoused by you, that walking away is "satisfying" your obligations, then you are indeed entering into fraud
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This is another lie.

Fraud requires a lie about a material fact. When I have applied for loans, no bank has ever asked for my opinion, so my taking a loan was not faudulent

Looks like the sanctimonious lies are really piling up now
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
1. I would feel morally obligated if I promised the owner
2. I would feel morally obligated
3. How many employees and what type of employees? Is it joint ownership? I cannot answer that question due to a lack of detail.
4. I would feel morally obligated so long as that manager remained employed there and could be harmed by my actions.
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Thanks for answering them all.

Do you honestly think that if someone in a bank goes out on a limb to give you a loan and then you reneg, that this will not cause him/her great hardship if they get fired because they went out on a limb for you? Not a family friend, just a person who had a good 'gut feeling' about you?
This person with this faceless corporation will now lose his job and will have great difficult supporting his stay-at-home wife and their baby girl who has medical problems...because he trusted you yet you felt no obligation to do what you said you would do.

There is no such thing as a faceless corporation or corporations have no soul. The people within the corporation have souls.

I have known many mooches who would not pay back companies with that old cop out line 'they are a big corporation' or 'they can afford it' or some other cop out response.

When what they are really saying is - 'don't trust me, I am not someone who honors his obligations unless I feel like it.'
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
Foreclosure does not require the lender to go to court.

The lies are beginning to pile up
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The irony is strong with you.

Foreclosure is a legal process in which a lender attempts to recover the balance of a loan from a borrower who has stopped making payments to the lender by forcing the sale of the asset used as the collateral for the loan.[1]

Formally, a mortgage lender (mortgagee), or other lienholder, obtains a termination of a mortgage borrower (mortgagor)'s equitable right of redemption, either by court order or by operation of law (after following a specific statutory procedure).[2]
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The above quote from Wikipedia is QUITE correct.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
I just stated that. But it is an irrelevant detail as they are employees and not the corporation
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The only thing I mentioned that is irrelevant is that the business in question is incorporated. It makes no difference at all how the business is legally seen or how it is put together as they are still run by people in all cases.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

DA60 said:
Thanks for answering them all.

Do you honestly think that if someone in a bank goes out on a limb to give you a loan and then you reneg, that this will not cause him/her great hardship if they get fired because they went out on a limb for you? Not a family friend, just a person who had a good 'gut feeling' about you?
This person with this faceless corporation will now lose his job and will have great difficult supporting his stay-at-home wife and their baby girl you has medical problems...because he trusted you yet you felt no obligation to do what you said you would do.

There is no such thing as a faceless corporation or corporations have no soul. The people within the corporation have souls.

I have known many mooches who would not pay back companies with that old cop out line 'they are a big corporation' or 'they can afford it' or some other cop out response.

When what they are really saying is - 'don't trust me, I am not someone who honors his obligations unless I feel like it.'
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If I were in a situation where someone would have to stick their neck out that far I would not take the loan unless the only other option is disaster for my children (I've lived through personal disaster and rebuilt it does not scare me). That would be a personal favor and I would feel a level of obligation to that person that would be far greater than any affection I feel for myself and act accordingly and very likely try to give him back far more than I got and probably be there for him for the rest of his life. That is a very serious situation but ultimately money is just the vehicle for what truly happened which is a great act of love and sacrifice. So I would pay back the money but be much more interested in repaying the love if that makes sense
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
This is another lie.

Fraud requires a lie about a material fact. When I have applied for loans, no bank has ever asked for my opinion, so my taking a loan was not faudulent

Looks like the sanctimonious lies are really piling up now
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Wow. You've got just as much character and honesty when it comes to accusing people of lying as you do when it comes to repaying debts you owe.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
The irony is strong with you.



The above quote from Wikipedia is QUITE correct.
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Yes, it is correct so please note how it says that foreclosure can be accomplished by "following a specific statutory procedure"

The lies you've posted are piling up
 
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