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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?
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Yes. If you borrow it, you pay it back. If someone feels sorry for you and loans you enough cash to attend a show, you pay it back, or try to, because I have friends, who won't allow it, because they insist it was a gift, but at least I try to pay it back. There is another old saying as well, if you make a mess or break it, you clean it up or fix it. I used to get really miffed at coworkers, who jammed up the shredder and then walked away. Okay, maybe they didn't have the expertise to fix it, but at least tell someone. Their philosophy was to walk away, knowing full well, that someone else would fix it. Besides, they didn't have time, since their projects were so much more important than life itself.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sookster said:
Nope. Banks use customer's money to enact debt on the consumer. It isn't their money.
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Nonsense. Banks pay you to use their money and they expect you to pay them to use theirs. When you deposit your money in a bank - be it a savings account, chequing account, GIC, retirement account, etc. - you loan your money to the bank to use in their business for the fee they offer. If you don't like the fee, you take your business elsewhere. Likewise, the bank then uses those deposits to generate income by loaning the funds to those who wish to borrow. Just as it's your money when you borrow from a bank, it is the bank's money when you loan it to them, regardless of whether you take it out the next day or leave it in there for years.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I wonder how many that think repaying loans is "optional" think that giving you back the money you deposit is also optional? You can take legal action against them so they have no obligation to return your funds if they decide they would rather not. Right?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
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It is absolutely a matter of loyalties and quid pro quo. To give something like moral obligation to an institution which will never repay the favor is simply being a martyr and setting yourself up for vulnerability.

It is the same for work. I go above my job description precisely because I get extra rewards for it. If the employer decides to arbitrarily stop paying me, then there are state agencies for that. Its just a deal, no more or less.

This is not a moral argument but a legal one. You can feel disgusted if you want to but it accomplishes nothing. I am sure it makes you feel like a good person though so I hope you get plenty of pleasure out of it.

As far as the transactions, I have no choice if I want to participate in modern society, that is simply how it's structured and this is not worth starving over. I am worth more than some useless battle that I have no chance of winning. In life, smart people choose their battles.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

It's not a "moral obligation to an istitution". It is a moral obligation to do what you agree to do, to mean what you say and to live up to your agreements. It isn't about the lender, their morals or lack thereof. It is about YOUR morality. Or lack thereof.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's not a "moral obligation to an istitution". It is a moral obligation to do what you agree to do, to mean what you say and to live up to your agreements. It isn't about the lender, their morals or lack thereof. It is about YOUR morality. Or lack thereof.
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I do what I agree to do to those worthy of my word and honor and individuals generally are until they show themselves to be immoral (which is pretty rare in my experience). Most people are decent and good in personal dealings and I am quite happy to participate in that on am equal basis. This is as it should be.

For example I am very loyal to my boss because he gave me a chance and promoted me. Plus he has taken the time to mentor me and help me become a better manager. I owe him a huge debt because it is largely because of him I have my current fortune and my family is secure. If you want to call that immoral or whatever, that's up to you. But the point is there is a difference between individuals and institutions.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Thrilla said:
I'm not even sure how national interest comes into play concerning foreclosures...
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There is a national interest in keeping homelessness as low as possible and home ownership rates as high as possible because neighborhoods with low ownership rates tend to suffer from a number of social ills (ex crime, substance abuse, etc)
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Thrilla said:
well, i wouldn't automatically consider a person immoral for defaulting on a loan....but those whom fraudulently take the loan out, or purposefully default even though they have the ability to pay... yeah.. i'd say those were bad people with bad characters... immoral.

I am actually surprised that it's the more left leaning among us who are arguing their is no moral component in this type of business.
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In that case, it would be the fraudulent intent and actions which would be immoral, not the actual default.

And the argument is not that there isn't any moral component in business or in loans. The OP made it clear that the question referred to those who took out mortgages and were later unable to pay. They had intended to pay back the loans, but circumstances rendered them unable to do so
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
There is a national interest in keeping homelessness as low as possible and home ownership rates as high as possible because neighborhoods with low ownership rates tend to suffer from a number of social ills (ex crime, substance abuse, etc)
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Exactly, national and societal interest guides my moral feelings and actions far more than some institution that only exists to make money.

Thank you for mentioning that very important point.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
I do what I agree to do to those worthy of my word and honor. This is as it should be.
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Situational ethics and moral equivalency are hallmarks of liberalism. You can rationalize that it is OK to cheat or lie and blame it on those you are lying to or cheating. It is a type of sociopathy that seems to be an essential aspect of liberalism. One of the great things about the Internet is that sometimes people will admit things in anonymity that they wouldn't be so quick to reveal face-to-face in real life. I think this thread will be illuminating to a lot of people reading it. It is insight into the mind and character of liberals.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Situational ethics and moral equivalency are hallmarks of liberalism. You can rationalize that it is OK to cheat or lie and blame it on those you are lying to or cheating. It is a type of sociopathy that seems to be an essential aspect of liberalism. One of the great things about the Internet is that sometimes people will admit things in anonymity that they wouldn't be so quick to reveal face-to-face in real life. I think this thread will be illuminating to a lot of people reading it. It is insight into the mind and character of liberals.
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It's cute you see it as rationalization. It is simply morality. One of the purposes of morality is to promote the good aspects of society and either remain neutral or push against the negative aspects. Solely for profits are an evil, but a necessary one given our current technological level, so they are to be tolerated but never thought of as a good because they conflict with higher priorities. It is as simple as that.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
They are not options for abiding by the contract. That's stupidity of the highest order. They are options to protect the lender from immoral people whose word is worthless and who choose to walk away from their obligations. Unfortunately, as your posts and this thread proves, lenders are well away that in today's society the immorality you espouse is rampant and so they legally protect their interests.
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Your argument is stupidity of the highest order. The contract clearly states that transferring ownership of the property to the bank is one way to satisfy the loan. IOW, the agreement offers the borrower to ways to satisfy the loan - with cash, or with the property itself.

There's nothing immoral about the borrower choosing an option that the lender agreed would satisfy the loan
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Exactly, national and societal interest guides my moral feelings and actions far more than some institution that only exists to make money.

Thank you for mentioning that very important point.
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Your comments actually reveal that self-interest guides you more than anything else and that morality really has no role at all in it for you. Funny to hear liberals assert that conservatives think "here's to me and f*** you". Turns out that is some hardcore projection.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
They are not options for abiding by the contract. That's stupidity of the highest order. They are options to protect the lender from immoral people whose word is worthless and who choose to walk away from their obligations. Unfortunately, as your posts and this thread proves, lenders are well away that in today's society the immorality you espouse is rampant and so they legally protect their interests.
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So when it happens in the free market, your thoughts are???

Also, if we're getting into the practice of talking about morality in financial decisions, is now a good time to bring up worker rights and worker pay?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Your comments actually reveal that self-interest guides you more than anything else and that morality really has no role at all in it for you. Funny to hear liberals assert that conservatives think "here's to me and f*** you". Turns out that is some hardcore projection.
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Heh. If you say so. I will continue doing what is right and you can continue not understanding it.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

SheWolf said:
How can anybody argue you should pay back a loan from a moral stand point???

I don't consider it moral or immoral, but one should repay debt for the sake of their financial wellbeing and credit score. If your house goes into foreclosure, I don't consider you immoral. I would consider your financial stability and credit score to be unfavorable.
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Of course you can argue that to say you will do something (pay back a loan) and then not do it is very much to do with morality.

'mor·al

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.'

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mora...i65j69i60l3&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


Anyone that says they will do something and then does not do it - and worse - never has any intention of doing it unless it was to their advantage...this states volumes about their character.

The fact that you do not see this speaks volumes about yours, btw.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
It's cute you see it as rationalization. It is simply morality. One of the purposes of morality is to promote the good aspects of society and either remain neutral or push against the negative aspects. Solely for profits are an evil, but a necessary one given our current technological level, so they are to be tolerated but never thought of as a good because they conflict with higher priorities. It is as simple as that.
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It's cute to see you try to act like rationalizing away obligations you agreed to is simply "morality". Cute is a really pathetic and sad kind of way.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Bullcrap. The fact that your credit sucks so bad that you can only get secured loans isn't to be construed as prof that repayment is "optional".
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My credit score is perfect

The terms of the contract DO call for you to repay. The fact that collection mechanisms are part of the contract aren't proof that you don't have an obligation. It's there just so there so that it is clear what actions will be taken if you renege on your obligation.
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I said that the contract does not require one to repay and I am right. The reason why collection mechanisms are a part of the contract is because both the lender and the borrower have agreed to those terms.

The fact that a bank will foreclose if you don't pay isn't a justification that it is OK not to repay any more than the fact that the government will send you to jail if you steal makes it OK to steal and just do the time for it.
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The fact that the lender agreed to the terms means that they have agreed to accept the property in order to settle the loan. Holding the bank to the terms that *it* agreed to is not immoral. Only the morally depraved would think that the borrower is the only one who must be held to the terms of an agreenment, but not the lender
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

CanadaJohn said:
You'd be wrong in your wishful thinking. Several, including the one poster who liked your post, have stated repeatedly words to the effect that they would opt to default at the drop of a hat if it benefited them personally. As a result, they believe that defrauding a business lender is perfectly acceptable and laughably "expected" by lenders.
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defaulting on a loan is not, in and of itself, fraudulent in any way.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Morality is to character.

'mor·al
ˈmôrəl/Submit
adjective
1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.'

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mora...i65j69i60l3&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


And I believe to say you will pay something back and then not to do it shows weakness of character.

I am not paying back the loan primarily to save my own skin. I am doing it because I wish to be known (to others as well as myself) as a person who honors his obligations, who does what he said he will do.


The fact that so many people voted 'no' explains the massive interest in Keynesian economics/big-government-regardless-of-debt-level, these days.

Since about 2002 (and DEFINITELY since 2007), America (and most of the western world/Japan) has become a moochers paradise.

Sad.

I wonder if these are the same sad bunch that get themselves massively into debt and then go and run to the government and try and get other people to bail them out? Probably.

Moochers are so useless to me.


BTW, if the above offends any moochers....GOOD.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

justabubba said:
[emphasis added by bubba]

weak straw man
that one owns a business enterprise does not then cause him/her to be found immoral
however, being active within a business, engaged in commerce, does provide that owner with numerous opportunities to display their immorality by their own actions
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It was an observation of something I have been seeing for sixteen plus years. I can bring up seemingly any random company and some liberal will start claiming awful things about them. This many times comes at the conclusion that they are soulless and not worth any real consideration.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
I wonder how many that think repaying loans is "optional" think that giving you back the money you deposit is also optional? You can take legal action against them so they have no obligation to return your funds if they decide they would rather not. Right?
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There have been many instances in our history when banks did not pay back the money that people deposited in their accounts. That's why there's insurance for savings accounts.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
So when it happens in the free market, your thoughts are???

Also, if we're getting into the practice of talking about morality in financial decisions, is now a good time to bring up worker rights and worker pay?
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It's wrong for you. It is wrong for me. It is wrong in the free market. Arguing that you only have to be moral if everyone else is moral proves that you don't understand morality. It is a revelation of your character, not anyone else's. This isn't about financial decisions. This is about whether or not you feel compelled to do what you have agreed to do. The bank cut you the check like they agreed to do. Their morality isn't the issue. Yours is.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
It's cute you see it as rationalization. It is simply morality. One of the purposes of morality is to promote the good aspects of society and either remain neutral or push against the negative aspects. Solely for profits are an evil, but a necessary one given our current technological level, so they are to be tolerated but never thought of as a good because they conflict with higher priorities. It is as simple as that.
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And people being true to their word is a good thing to promote. Btw, the last part about soley for profit is an example of what I have observed about liberals since '98.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
There have been many instances in our history when banks did not pay back the money that people deposited in their accounts. That's why there's insurance for savings accounts.
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Banks have gone out of business and failed to fulfill their obligations because of that. It isn't moral for a bank to keep money that it accepted from you with a condition to repay just like it is immoral for you to do the same. Just between you and me, I trust the bank to repay money I deposit way, WAY more than I would trust you to repay money you have borrowed. By comparison to you, every bank I've done business with gas been a paragon of virtue and morality. Not once have I had reason to believe they would willingly renege on their obligations just because it suits them. But I believe you would.
 
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