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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?


  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Actually, I'm not. Surprised, that is. People on the left are less likely to have respect for business. I'm not sure if it's conscious or subconscious, but I suspect it's something of a "they'll screw me if I don't screw them first" mindset.

Actually it is a matter of intelligence I'm afraid. Anyone too stupid to see that they were duped into buying a bad loan by a bank and feel sorry for them and pay the whole thing off for "moral reasons" deserves to be a right winger. I guess lefties don't like being patsies as much as the Right.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I'm sure.

You're definitely more likely to find distrust of business on the left, but the idea that "the left" finds business itself or businessmen as a whole to be immoral is patently untrue.

I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

But you believe that business is never immoral and always cares about more than profits. Either you are incredibly naïve or a fool.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

But you believe that business is never immoral and always cares about more than profits. Either you are incredibly naïve or a fool.

There is bastards in all walks of life.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.

Yes, you poor, persecuted soul, with all those mean liberals out to get you.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Yes they are options for abiding by the terms of the contract. The contract spells out such options.

They are not options for abiding by the contract. That's stupidity of the highest order. They are options to protect the lender from immoral people whose word is worthless and who choose to walk away from their obligations. Unfortunately, as your posts and this thread proves, lenders are well away that in today's society the immorality you espouse is rampant and so they legally protect their interests.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Agreed, words mean something.

People mean something too though.

A lot of people find themselves in circumstances they didn't expect. When they were 30yo professionals bringing in a household income of 120k a year, that 25 year mortgage probably sounded like something they could easily manage.

When twenty years later the business Mr was in doesn't exist anymore thanks to outsourcing or technology, and Mrs was stricken by a strange disorder that has left her unable to work, things look a lot different.

A little humanity towards one's fellow man may not be a fundamental business principle... but maybe it should be.

I can't speak for American banks, but here in Canada if you were paying your mortgage faithfully for 20 years and then had life changing difficulties, the bank would work with you to make the remaining debt manageable. It's much easier for a bank to keep you as a paying customer than to turn you into a defendant in a foreclosure or other court action.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

They do matter I'm aggregate but I am not responsible for the actions of others. Let's say we share progressive as our insurance, the sheer amount of money I have to influence for you to see your premiums move a penny is more than I will ever own or ever care to own.

I as a person present no harm to you as a person regarding this interaction

So, bottom line, as long as everyone else is moral, you can be as immoral as you want because the impact of your immorality will be minimal. Problem is, there are an abundance of immoral people out there following your code of conduct and that makes everyone's credit card rate higher, personal loan rate higher, mortgage rate higher, insurance rates higher, etc. But hey, you apparently live in a vacuum so what do you care.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

It was the banks that set the value of the mortgage with their own appraisals and when they closed on the mortgage they agreed to the use of that home for collateral for the value they appraised. This is how mortgages have always been written. That is the reason for "qualifying" buyers and doing their own appraisals, there is a risk if someone defaults. It is not against any law to default on collateralized loan and returning the collateral satisfies the debt. The idea that banks are somehow being "victimized" because of their failure to qualify mortgages and writing "balloon" interest loans in the midst of a housing bubble is preposterous and wrong. The immorality lies totally with the bankers and the billions in fines were just a slap on the wrist. They'd try the whole damn thing again if they could

I didn't say it was against the law. I said it was immoral. Lots of things that are immoral aren't against the law. You can step out on your wife on a regular basis but it's not illegal but it sure as hell is immoral.

Secondly, nobody forced a person to sign a contract to purchase a home at a price agreed to by both the buyer and the seller. The bank or mortgage provider wasn't a party to that contract so they didn't set the price. The mortgage provider only appraises the home's value at the time of issuing the mortgage to ensure there is sufficient equity in the home to cover the mortgage because it is illegal, fraudulent, to finance any item at a higher value than it is worth. But make no mistake, the purchaser of the home set the price, not the bank/mortgage company.

Finally, housing prices rise and fall often cyclically, similar to the stock market. If you buy stocks on margin hoping to see the price rise and it doesn't, does that mean you can just walk away and let someone else pay for your bad bet? The same thing happened in the housing market in the US. People were buying homes they couldn't afford hoping that a new sucker would buy that home at a higher price before they had to answer the call on the debt. Unfortunately for many, the market ran out of suckers and people were stuck, the market tanked, and more unfortunately some good, honest people saw their home devalue too through no fault of their own.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

So, bottom line, as long as everyone else is moral, you can be as immoral as you want because the impact of your immorality will be minimal. Problem is, there are an abundance of immoral people out there following your code of conduct and that makes everyone's credit card rate higher, personal loan rate higher, mortgage rate higher, insurance rates higher, etc. But hey, you apparently live in a vacuum so what do you care.
Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.

So why the outrage?

I am sorry that feeling no loyalty to entities that do thing like lay people off and ruin lives so some CEO can get a fifth home bothers so many people but maybe if these companies behaved ethically I wouldn't have checked out. I am simply doing what makes sense and focusing my morality on things in life that aren't inherently evil. But if you want to feel morally obligated to such a monster, go ahead. The way businesses behave gives me no reason to care. If a business puts people ahead of money I will support them as I have means to, like I do with charities. Until then I do my job well enough to get my raises and fake that I care well enough so I can continue to eat and have shelter because this is the world people want. A world that focuses more on money than people. I do not feel obligated to such greed. I reserve my energy for people.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Because it is keeping your word. Do you think it is moral to say you will pay someone back and never do so?

Obviously situations can make you break your word, but if you never intended to pay the loan back then you deceived the lender into believing you would.
[emphasis added by bubba to make the point immediately below]

what you have described is a prima facie instance of fraud
hopefully, there is no one on these boards who believes fraud is a moral act
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

well, i wouldn't automatically consider a person immoral for defaulting on a loan....but those whom fraudulently take the loan out, or purposefully default even though they have the ability to pay... yeah.. i'd say those were bad people with bad characters... immoral.

I am actually surprised that it's the more left leaning among us who are arguing their is no moral component in this type of business.
which is kinda making me wonder what other types of business are bereft of a moral component... or it is simply "business" as a whole that is amoral.
meh... maybe there's a limit... maybe there's not...... but this has all been an interesting conversation.
[emphasis added by bubba]

here's an indicator to evaluate whether the transaction is a business agreement or one subject to morality: was there a signed promissory note. that note definitizes the agreement, legally compelling payment of the debt, subjecting the debtor to collection efforts if there is a default, should the lender chose to exercise that legal process
if there is not one, then the expectation of repayment is solely based on the morality of the debtor who accepted the loan
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Liberals have long argued that business men are immoral and at the same time that business is amoral. The human part of the equation somehow affects business and at the same time doesn't affect business. Liberals are not well known for coherent logic and this thread is a good example of it.
[emphasis added by bubba]

weak straw man
that one owns a business enterprise does not then cause him/her to be found immoral
however, being active within a business, engaged in commerce, does provide that owner with numerous opportunities to display their immorality by their own actions
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.

As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.

i believe what you are seeing is an element within our population who found the consumer to be at a distinct disadvantage when dealing with some businesses, especially within the financial sector
which is why those disproportionately of the progressive side of politics, such as Elizabeth Warren, advocated and created the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in an effort to try to level the playing field for all parties relative to financial transactions
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

You leave yourself open to violation when you assign morality to something that is amoral.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

You sign a promise to repay (usually with interest). You gave your word*. You then feel no obligation to uphold your word, AND you feel no guilt whatsoever about it.

I think we've stumbled upon what's wrong with society.

View attachment 67179398

*- Unforeseen dire circumstances not included.

And it is widespread. This thread tells me that an inordinate amount of people don't consider it important to keep their word or fulfill obligations they accept. Their word means nothing and they cannot be trusted. It is all about integrity and character and this thread indicates that political lean is a good clue about those things.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Nope. Banks use customer's money to enact debt on the consumer. It isn't their money.
 
Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

By the way. If this thread doesn't explain why banks want LARGE down payments, nothing does. There are obviously so many people that feel no moral obligation to pay back their loans that it is extremely risky to loan money to people without enough secured collateral to cover the loan and all the court and administration costs required to recover the losses from these deadbeats.

Remember that the next time we bitch that banks are too tight with their loan conditions or that the government needs to make home ownership "more accessible" to everyone. Taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook for deadbeats defaulting any more than banks should.

My belief that people are, basically honest and good, is something I am going to have to reconsider.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?

Of course, there is that moral obligation. And trust is a wonderful thing.

But it is better to have good laws, strong contracts, close monitoring and swift, robust and harsh enforcement.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Of course, there is that moral obligation. And trust is a wonderful thing.

But it is better to have good laws, strong contracts, close monitoring and swift, robust and harsh enforcement.

Clearly, anyone who thinks you can do business on a handshake and expect people to do what's right because it's right is going to get burned. It's just not smart to trust people freely because too many have no character.
 
Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

And I maintain that morality does not require the paying back of loans made by banks or other financial institutions.

When I take a loan, I create an obligation to adhere to the terms of the contract - which I do. However, the terms do not require that I pay back the loan. At least, none of the loans I've ever taken require that. They have all contained provisions that allow me to not pay back the loan and there's nothing immoral about taking a course of action that the contract has defined

Bullcrap. The fact that your credit sucks so bad that you can only get secured loans isn't to be construed as prof that repayment is "optional". The terms of the contract DO call for you to repay. The fact that collection mechanisms are part of the contract aren't proof that you don't have an obligation. It's there just so there so that it is clear what actions will be taken if you renege on your obligation.

The fact that a bank will foreclose if you don't pay isn't a justification that it is OK not to repay any more than the fact that the government will send you to jail if you steal makes it OK to steal and just do the time for it.

It is your obligation to fulfill the terms of your contract and the clauses telling you what actions they will take if you don't isn't to be construed as proof that being a deadbeat isn't wrong. It's just proof that lenders know a lot of people like you simply can't be trusted to do what you agreed. They're not to "allow you not to repay". They're there to tell you what they are going to do if you fail to meet your obligation. That's what the loan security is about. It's not a "repayment optional" clause.

And your credit will suffer because you have proven that you don't have enough character to be trusted. That wouldn't happen if repayment of loans was optional. It is a black mark against you. And it's well deserved.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.

So why the outrage?

I am sorry that feeling no loyalty to entities that do thing like lay people off and ruin lives so some CEO can get a fifth home bothers so many people but maybe if these companies behaved ethically I wouldn't have checked out. I am simply doing what makes sense and focusing my morality on things in life that aren't inherently evil. But if you want to feel morally obligated to such a monster, go ahead. The way businesses behave gives me no reason to care. If a business puts people ahead of money I will support them as I have means to, like I do with charities. Until then I do my job well enough to get my raises and fake that I care well enough so I can continue to eat and have shelter because this is the world people want. A world that focuses more on money than people. I do not feel obligated to such greed. I reserve my energy for people.

It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

[emphasis added by bubba to make the point immediately below]

what you have described is a prima facie instance of fraud
hopefully, there is no one on these boards who believes fraud is a moral act

You'd be wrong in your wishful thinking. Several, including the one poster who liked your post, have stated repeatedly words to the effect that they would opt to default at the drop of a hat if it benefited them personally. As a result, they believe that defrauding a business lender is perfectly acceptable and laughably "expected" by lenders.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

The govt pays back all of the money it borrows. It does not default on its' debt (though the immoral republicans are doing everything they can to change that)

Then it turns around and borrows again.

:lamo

The hackery is high with this one.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.

And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.

Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.

I find it very disheartening that so many refuse to understand that the moral obligation to do what you promise to do is about YOUR behavior and character, not about someone or something else's character or morality. The morality of the person you are doing business with isn't the issue. The issue is whether you are good for your word or whether you are not. It's whether you fulfill obligations you accept or whether you do not. It is about your character if you walk away from a mortgage and make the bank foreclose; it's not about your rationalizations about the lender that you decide to stiff. It's all about YOU.

The fact that so many refuse to accept that is very disturbing and very revealing.
 
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