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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
Do you know why I asked you about a time machine? Your ideal world didn't even work all that well in the past and it incapable with the future. Its also ironic that you want advancement and communism. Going back in time to a system only good at survival in small numbers will do you no favors in terms of prosperity and growth.
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Are you trying to tell me something I admitted isn't possible isn't possible?

Are you debating or just retyping from a script?

as I said, the player plays the game, so instead I chose the path of IT project management so I can at least go to club and stuff at night and actually enjoy life :). Even though I find my current pursuit of being debt free highly enjoyable as it increases my security.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Socialism isn't communism

Socialism in its modern understanding has market economy aspects
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It always kind of did.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Lursa said:
And then what?
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And then impossibility to pay means no payment gets made.

Interesting point. Are you entitled to your car or home at the expense of the lender?
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No, though I did pay cash for my car--well technically check.

Is the fact that the lender is 'bigger' or has more money or can spread that loss out over others justification?
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Justification for what?

Or does the lender accept this implicitly and consent to that risk when they make the loan?
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Lending money always involves risk in the same way that setting up an ice cream cone stand involves risk.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Are you trying to tell me something I admitted isn't possible isn't possible?

Are you debating or just retyping from a script?

as I said instead I chose the path of IT project management so I can at least go to club and stuff at night and actually enjoy life :)
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I was saying the system conflicts with your stated goals. Regardless, you don't move forward by going backwards.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
if from a person, yes

if from a company, no

From an individual, you can cause that individual harm in most situations as most individuals have only so many resources. If its a company, well that build a % loss into the business model, so its already accounted for. Given that, its best to try to repay any loan you can and only not to in cases where you become destitute.
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The business model is to recoup losses from anyone else involved in the loans or doing business with the institution. Reneging on a load with a large institution by no means means that no one (outside the institution) is harmed.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
I was saying the system conflicts with your stated goals.
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Obviously but I am powerless to fix that and therefore accept it and try to live as morally as possible in a fallen world
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Lursa said:
The business model is to recoup losses from anyone else involved in the loans or doing business with the institution. Reneging on a load with a large institution by no means means that no one (outside the institution) is harmed.
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Its diffused enough that the harm is so minimized that it may as well not exist

They lose far less than a penny and it averages out to nothing from individual actions but only matters in aggregate and all I can do is control my own actions as they create harm

But thank you for giving a real scenario to consider unlike Ockham's farse of an argument.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Declan said:
And then impossibility to pay means no payment gets made.



No, though I did pay cash for my car--well technically check.



Justification for what?


Lending money always involves risk in the same way that setting up an ice cream cone stand involves risk.
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That's good. And justification is based on the moral argument, not the business argument/model. I was asking if it was morally justifiable to do so to a large institution rather than an individual...knowing that the loss would be felt by the individuals having dealings with the institution, rather than the institution.

The risk is passed on to others with institutions. That is their basic business model.

Not really meant only for you, you just framed your response in an open manner.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Its diffused enough that the harm is so minimized that it may as well not exist
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Really? I dont feel that way about my health insurance or car insurance payments. They suck because of fraud and other people's accidents.

I have no accidents. I'm still really healthy and never go to the doctor (knock wood, I shouldnt have written that).

So IMO, not remotely minimized. And certainly not a moral argument. (Well it might be from your response...it's ok as long as it's just 'a little.')
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Obviously but I am powerless to fix that and therefore accept it and try to live as morally as possible in a fallen world
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What in the hell are you talking about? Your ideal system should be one that can reach your stated goals. Communism would call for mass killing of the population to work and even then only work like a hunter gather society.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Henrin said:
What in the hell are you talking about? Your ideal system should be one that can reach your stated goals. Communism would call for mass killing of the population to work and even then only work like a hunter gather society.
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And now henrins paranoid side comes out...

Oh well I guess this is the natural end of this once you lose rationality

Good night I have no interest in your boring repeated stuff in probably over a thousand threads by now.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Lursa said:
Really? I dont feel that way about my health insurance or car insurance payments. They suck because of fraud and other people's accidents.

I have no accidents. I'm still really healthy and never go to the doctor (knock wood, I shouldnt have written that).

So IMO, not remotely minimized. And certainly not a moral argument. (Well it might be from your response...it's ok as long as it's just 'a little.')
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They do matter I'm aggregate but I am not responsible for the actions of others. Let's say we share progressive as our insurance, the sheer amount of money I have to influence for you to see your premiums move a penny is more than I will ever own or ever care to own.

I as a person present no harm to you as a person regarding this interaction
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

I think the discussion has taken some ugly turns and went a lil too personal...

take some time..... chill out.... it's just a conversation.

I wonder though... if a person doesn't see paying their loans as a moral obligation, but they still pay their loans on some basis other than morality, can we really declare them to be immoral?... they are acting in accordance to our morality, so determining them to be immoral just doesn't make much sense.

but that brings another question to my mind... why the hell are the generally political persuasions abandoning their traditional arguments?.... libertarians denouncing self-interest and embracing morality.. liberals/progressives embracing self-interest while casting away morality.
cats sleeping with dogs, dogs sleeping with cats... it's a madhouse round here :lol:


in any event.. pay your bills... it's the right thing to do.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
And now henrins paranoid side comes out...

Oh well I guess this is the natural end of this once you lose rationality

Good night I have no interest in your boring repeated stuff in probably over a thousand threads by now.
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The only way to obtain your system is mass murder. That isn't paranoia, but an observation.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Thrilla said:
I think the discussion has taken some ugly turns and went a lil too personal...

take some time..... chill out.... it's just a conversation.

I wonder though... if a person doesn't see paying their loans as a moral obligation, but they still pay their loans on some basis other than morality, can we really declare them to be immoral?... they are acting in accordance to our morality, so determining them to be immoral just doesn't make much sense.

but that brings another question to my mind... why the hell are the generally political persuasions abandoning their traditional arguments?.... libertarians denouncing self-interest and embracing morality.. liberals/progressives embracing self-interest while casting away morality.
cats sleeping with dogs, dogs sleeping with cats... it's a madhouse round here :lol:


in any event.. pay your bills... it's the right thing to do.
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Because they don't want to have to deal with a judge or collections department. But I feel different about an electric bill, that's a good or service I consumed and not financial speculation placed an institution has agreed to with me.

As for your second question. All ideologies are emotion based at their core and all the logic and rationality is self justification. This is the exact same reason conservatives are using the exact same arguments about being culturally overbearing that liberals used in the 80s. These arguments are simply a tool for the deeper emotional justification. The human mind isn't a rational machine.

The real truth is that this forum is just biological interplay that is truly defined by our predisposed social instincts since birth.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Lursa said:
That's good. And justification is based on the moral argument, not the business argument/model. I was asking if it was morally justifiable to do so to a large institution rather than an individual...knowing that the loss would be felt by the individuals having dealings with the institution, rather than the institution.

The risk is passed on to others with institutions. That is their basic business model.

Not really meant only for you, you just framed your response in an open manner.
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As to the point I was unsure on, no, the size of the other party does not make it more of less just to stiff them if you can avoid it. It would be like saying it was okay to shoplift at Walmart because they can afford the loss.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

beefheart said:
I am debt-phobic. I am doing everything possible to pay my 30 year loan off in 10 years...because it is my money I am saving....
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and you'll be saving a ton of it if you succeed in paying it off in 10 years... well done.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
And now henrins paranoid side comes out...

Oh well I guess this is the natural end of this once you lose rationality

Good night I have no interest in your boring repeated stuff in probably over a thousand threads by now.
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Btw, I never said communism would call for mass murder before.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Didn't say it was. But how do you explain all the liberals here thinking it NOT IMMORAL to fail to repay a debt that you agreed to repay in good faith? All the people arguing that are liberals. Got an excuse for that?
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How do you explain the ones that dont? :2wave:
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
They do matter I'm aggregate but I am not responsible for the actions of others. Let's say we share progressive as our insurance, the sheer amount of money I have to influence for you to see your premiums move a penny is more than I will ever own or ever care to own.

I as a person present no harm to you as a person regarding this interaction
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That's not true in fact. Because people who do so factually raise the costs for others (affect other people negatively.)
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Lursa said:
That's not true in fact. Because people who do so factually raise the costs for others (affect other people negatively.)
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I cannot affect your cost by even a penny.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

iguanaman said:
You not knowing the difference between a SECURED loan and an unsecured loan says more about you intelligence than your lean. Plenty of righties walked away from those predatory loans. Loans that were illegal by most State laws. The banks are now paying record fines for writing them too.
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Which they promptly pass on to their other customers :(
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
I cannot affect your cost by even a penny.
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You do realize rate of use has a direct affect on rates, right?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

sangha said:
Not paying back a mortgage is not "cheating". The consequences of not paying the mortgage are a part of the agreement that both the borrower *and* the lender agreed to.
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Agreed. The business also has its recourse. Business is business. And it is not immoral for it to carry it out if it is the terms stated in the contact/agreement that a borrower knowingly signed.

If transactions were ONLY based on morality, no one would bother having legal means to describe and structure them.

The fact that humans apparently dont always behave morally has created an entire legal industry :) And supports it very handsomely.
 
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