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Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?[W:461]

Is there a moral obligation to repay money you borrow?

  • If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it.

    Votes: 91 92.9%

  • I feel no moral obligation to repay loans I've taken out

    Votes: 7 7.1%
  • Total voters
    98
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
Papa Bull is trying to turn this into a simple question. The original issue was about people who took out loans on houses before the collapse, then found themselves underwater, and who then walked away from the loans. He said the idea was from a "typical liberal professor" (I'm not even sure if the guy was liberal but whatever), and that the borrowers who did so were "contemptible". I questioned whether he believed that from a business/free market perspective.

This is his attempt to simplify the issue into black/white, moral/immoral terms.
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For some folks who feel emotional discomfort at fuzzy categories, the attempt to turn things into a black/white scenario is natural. The problem is that in most situations you will have a lot of edge cases. The difference between black and white is often rainbow, not grey in other words.

But the point is, people do have emotional limitations when it comes to categorization and it affects their moral processing.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?
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I voted yes.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
For some folks who feel emotional discomfort at fuzzy categories, the attempt to turn things into a black/white scenario is natural. The problem is that in most situations you will have a lot of edge cases. The difference between black and white is often rainbow, not grey in other words.

But the point is, people do have emotional limitations when it comes to categorization and it affects their moral processing.
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So are you of the opinion that it's DIFFERENT if it's a business that loans you the money because it's not a moral problem to screw THEM if you can. Is that it? If that's it, I'd say that in your slant, "other" probably means "liberal", don't it? Justabubba will be interested in that answer.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Justabba...... you paying attention here?

ILOR.... Here's the question I asked: "If you borrow money, you are morally obligated to repay it?"

It makes no difference at all whether it is a bank or an individual. It is no less dishonest to cheat a bank than it is to cheat your next door neighbor. To rationalize that you don't have to do what you agree to do as a condition for receiving money if it's a business instead of a person is precisely what I pointed out to Justabubba that I see frequently among liberals and it is a form of sociopathy.
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If I borrow 10 dollars from you and tell you I will pay you back...I will do anything I can to repay you. I told you I would pay you back and I will.

A mortgage is a contract. The contract provides different responses for different scenarios. A strategic default is just that...a strategic business decisions. As I pointed out (I edited my post and added a link) businesses do it all the time.

As for it being a business instead of a person...I do think that morality can differ based on the rules/environment/persons you are dealing with. The business has a set of rules that everyone operates under. It's moral to follow the law, but there's no reason you should handicap yourself when making a large decision. The other party isn't operating from a moral compass and I don't know about you...but I'm never going to choose to be some moral martyr in that situation.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It is black and white. You borrow money in good faith. Is it immoral to welsh on the deal?

Justabubba.... you listenin' here, buddy?
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I, of course, think morally speaking it is required to pay the debt back, but I don't suffer needing to defend from the juxtaposition argument that when it's done on a business level "it's just the free market".
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

However, this must also apply, by extension, to companies. Since, you know....they're people.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
So are you of the opinion that it's DIFFERENT if it's a business that loans you the money because it's not a moral problem to screw THEM if you can. Is that it? If that's it, I'd say that in your slant, "other" probably means "liberal", don't it? Justabubba will be interested in that answer.
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Its a huge leap from not feeling a moral obligation to screwing someone if you can. There are plenty of good reasons to repay your loan from credit ratings to peace of mind to honoring a promise. But yes there is a large and not subtle difference between an individual and institution. Making a moral commitment to an institution which is a nameless, nonliving, and faceless entity is irrational. There is nothing on the otherwise to make the commitment to whereas making a commitment to a person means there is. When its an institution it becomes business and not personal commitment.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

iliveonramen said:
If I borrow 10 dollars from you and tell you I will pay you back...I will do anything I can to repay you. I told you I would pay you back and I will.

A mortgage is a contract. The contract provides different responses for different scenarios. A strategic default is just that...a strategic business decisions. As I pointed out (I edited my post and added a link) businesses do it all the time.

As for it being a business instead of a person...I do think that morality can differ based on the rules/environment/persons you are dealing with. The business has a set of rules that everyone operates under. It's moral to follow the law, but there's no reason you should handicap yourself when making a large decision. The other party isn't offering from a moral compass and I don't know about you...but I'm never going to choose to be some moral martyr in that situation.
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It's the same thing. You gave me a verbal contract. The business gave you a written contract. In both cases you promised to do something in order to get money. You promised to repay it. In both cases if you do not repay it, you are reneging on your deal, going back on your word and failing to do what you agreed to do in order to get that money. Now a bank's going to come after you for what they can to try to recoup some of their losses while I wouldn't do anything to you but who you did that to isn't relevant to the morality of it. The fact that you DID it is relevant to the morality of it.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Its a huge leap from not feeling a moral obligation to screwing someone if you can. There are plenty of good reasons to repay your loan from credit ratings to peace of mind to honoring a promise. But yes there is a large and not subtle difference between an individual and institution. Making a moral commitment to an institution which is a nameless, nonliving, and faceless entity is irrational. There is nothing on the otherwise to make the commitment to whereas making a commitment to a person means there is.
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If you don't repay the money you borrow, you're screwing the lender. And if you do it just because you can and because you benefit financially, then you're really splitting hairs trying to figure out some way to make it OK. It's tantamount to stealing and there's no way to pretend that if you can look at it JUSSSSSTTTT right, you can see "it's maybe kinda sorta different and maybe OK since it's not like a person or something and well, that whole black and white thing and...well, it just kinda aint the same ya know........"

But don't sweat it, there's a whole LOT of people that have the same moral challenge with it that you do. It seems to be a liberal thing.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

whysoserious said:
I, of course, think morally speaking it is required to pay the debt back, but I don't suffer needing to defend from the juxtaposition argument that when it's done on a business level "it's just the free market".
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Others are are going there for you.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
If you don't repay the money you borrow, you're screwing the lender. And if you do it just because you can and because you benefit financially, then you're really splitting hairs trying to figure out some way to make it OK.
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There is no splitting hairs, it is ok because its business and business is amoral. If business weren't amoral, people would not be laid off because of stuff like profit margins.

Papa bull said:
It's tantamount to stealing and there's no way to pretend that if you can look at it JUSSSSSTTTT right, you can see "it's maybe kinda sorta different and maybe OK since it's not like a person or something and well, that whole black and white thing and...well, it just kinda aint the same ya know........"

But don't sweat it, there's a whole LOT of people that have the same moral challenge with it that you do. It seems to be a liberal thing.
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correct, because there is nothing wrong with it in the first place.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
LOL. That's what I figure most lefties would say. "screw 'em, let them keep the house (or car or TV or furniture) since it isn't worth what I paid for it".
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What kind of a hack thinks that repaying a personal debt is contingent on whether one is liberal or conservative? I assure you there were plenty of defaults from 2008 through 2010 or so out in Republican McMansion land suburbs as well.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
There is no splitting hairs, it is ok because its business and business is amoral. If business weren't amoral, people would not be laid off because of stuff like profit margins.



correct, because there is nothing wrong with it in the first place.
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LOL. It's not the business behaving amorally when you renege on YOUR agreement. It's YOUR morals that are at issue because it's what YOU are doing. There's no morality "get out of jail free card" for behaving immorally in business, personal or otherwise. And whether it's a bank or not, it would be absolutely immoral for a bank to take your money and not pay it back when the condition is that they would pay you back on demand. Don't you expect a bank to give you whatever you want to withdraw from your savings instead of saying... "well... ya know.... I don't think I'm gonna do that. Just sue me". You don't get a "morality pass" for your bad behavior on the basis of "business is amoral" so cheating/stealing/reneging/screwing, etc. isn't immoral if you only do it to a business.

Justabubba, you see what I'm talking about here?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

SouthernDemocrat said:
What kind of a hack thinks that repaying a personal debt is contingent on whether one is liberal or conservative? I assure you there were plenty of defaults from 2008 through 2010 or so out in Republican McMansion land suburbs as well.
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Didn't say it was. But how do you explain all the liberals here thinking it NOT IMMORAL to fail to repay a debt that you agreed to repay in good faith? All the people arguing that are liberals. Got an excuse for that?
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
LOL. It's not the business behaving amorally when you renege on YOUR agreement. It's YOUR morals that are at issue because it's what YOU are doing. There's no morality "get out of jail free card" for behaving immorally in business, personal or otherwise. And whether it's a bank or not, it would be absolutely immoral for a bank to take your money and not pay it back when the condition is that they would pay you back on demand. Don't you expect a bank to give you whatever you want to withdraw from your savings instead of saying... "well... ya know.... I don't think I'm gonna do that. Just sue me". You don't get a "morality pass" for your bad behavior on the basis of "business is amoral" so cheating/stealing/reneging/screwing, etc. isn't immoral if you only do it to a business.

Justabubba, you see what I'm talking about here?
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Actually it does. Because only a fool would make a moral agreement to an amoral entity because the nature of the agreement cannot be within the scope of morality due to the fact its an amoral entity. It negates the possibility in the first place due to the inherent impersonal nature of the transaction.

You should be more easily be able to get this simple concept. Ive explained it from many angles now.
 
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Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
The banks don't get all their money back from selling the house. It was YOUR choice to buy the house. Reneging on the deal later just because it doesn't suit you any more is about the same as stealing money. You take money with the condition that you pay it back and you decide not to live up to your end of the bargain because it's more profitable for you if you don't. That's basically stealing.
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You mean like what Tishman Spears & Blackrock did with Stuyvesant Town-Peter Cooper Village? Buy for 5.4 billion than when the value drops say see ya! Not like either are out of business.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

A loan is a promise to pay. 'Nuff said
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?
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Not only morally, but legally.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Didn't say it was. But how do you explain all the liberals here thinking it NOT IMMORAL to fail to repay a debt that you agreed to repay in good faith? All the people arguing that are liberals. Got an excuse for that?
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It's an unscientific self selected poll. You cannot make any generalizations from a self selected unscientific poll.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
Others are are going there for you.
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Because you are forcing the debate into that realm instead of discussing the real topic:

How mortgage-backed securities and leveraging of credit-default swaps shat all over our economy. All you want to do is discuss the people who walked away from bad debt, when, as it has been pointed out to you, if it was done on a business level you'd have no problem with it.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
It's the same thing. You gave me a verbal contract. The business gave you a written contract. In both cases you promised to do something in order to get money. You promised to repay it. In both cases if you do not repay it, you are reneging on your deal, going back on your word and failing to do what you agreed to do in order to get that money. Now a bank's going to come after you for what they can to try to recoup some of their losses while I wouldn't do anything to you but who you did that to isn't relevant to the morality of it. The fact that you DID it is relevant to the morality of it.
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I see the two as completely different.

I personal deal between two people operates on trust. I think if someone trusts you and you betray that trust it's pretty despicable.

The mortgage is an arms length transaction based upon a contract written up and an agreement of both parties to the terms. The term is, if you refuse to pay back the bank with interest they will seize the asset. That's it. Like I had mentioned...this is a common practice and the rules of the game in the world of business.

Two people do operate or morality. If you came to me and said "hey, I want to pay you back but I lost my job and my kid is sick so I have no money right now", I would act on morality and say "I understand buddy, just pay me back when you can". The loan is typically one party really helping out the other party.

Try your sad story to the bank, they may work with you a bit but that's based solely on self interest. They would rather you continue payments rather than go through the foreclosure process and the resale of the house. they are not moral entities. They are entities that exist solely for their best interest based on the requirements by law and contract. Why wouldn't you operate by the same rules? Why would you restrict yourself in that environment that has a set of rules? You should always operate in your own self interest in that situation.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

iliveonramen said:
I see the two as completely different.
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So do a whole lot of liberals. It's not different but for some reason a whole bunch of you want to say that for them it is.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

tacomancer said:
Actually it does. Because only a fool would make a moral agreement to an amoral entity because the nature of the agreement cannot be within the scope of morality due to the fact its an amoral entity. It negates the possibility in the first place due to the inherent impersonal nature of the transaction.

You should be more easily be able to get this simple concept. Ive explained it from many angles now.
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That was some of the most awesome double-talking rationalization I think I've EVER seen. The agreement isn't the "morality" issue.

Breaking YOUR word for YOUR gain is the morality issue. You act like it's OK to behave in an immoral way as long as the behavior is directed at someone or something that you can claim to be "amoral" in nature. This is, as I said, sociopathic thinking.
 
Re: Are you morally obligated to repay a loan that you take?

Papa bull said:
So do a whole lot of liberals. It's not different but for some reason a whole bunch of you want to say that for them it is.
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You not knowing the difference between a SECURED loan and an unsecured loan says more about you intelligence than your lean. Plenty of righties walked away from those predatory loans. Loans that were illegal by most State laws. The banks are now paying record fines for writing them too.
 
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