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Is Racial Discrimination Sometimes Justified?

Is racial discrimination sometimes justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • No

    Votes: 15 83.3%
  • Total voters
    18
MildSteel

MildSteel

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For whatever reason, we see that certain races or more prone to certain types of negative and/or illegal activity. Not only that, but certain books like the Bell Curve seem to suggest that certain races are less intelligent that other races. As such, if we are really to look at the world as it is, is a certain amount of racial discrimination justified?
 
MildSteel said:
For whatever reason, we see that certain races or more prone to certain types of negative and/or illegal activity. Not only that, but certain books like the Bell Curve seem to suggest that certain races are less intelligent that other races. As such, if we are really to look at the world as it is, is a certain amount of racial discrimination justified?
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Maybe a niche porn.For example if you are running a website that only has black chicks on it then obviously you are not going to hire any white, Indian or whatever else porn actress.
 
:popcorn2:
 
MildSteel said:
For whatever reason, we see that certain races or more prone to certain types of negative and/or illegal activity. Not only that, but certain books like the Bell Curve seem to suggest that certain races are less intelligent that other races. As such, if we are really to look at the world as it is, is a certain amount of racial discrimination justified?
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Not at a legal level, and it's not "justified" at a personal level, but there will always be differences in people wrt different characteristics, whether skin color, intellectual capabilities, natural talents, or proficiencies. We can't change that, but we can insure that we are all treated equally under the law.
 
lizzie said:
Not at a legal level, and it's not "justified" at a personal level, but there will always be differences in people wrt different characteristics, whether skin color, intellectual capabilities, natural talents, or proficiencies. We can't change that, but we can insure that we are all treated equally under the law.
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Why would it not be justified at a personal level if indeed the characteristics and aptitudes are different on a racial basis? Or are you saying that they are not different on the racial level?
 
MildSteel said:
Why would it not be justified at a personal level if indeed the characteristics and aptitudes are different on a racial basis? Or are you saying that they are not different on the racial level?
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I don't think they ARE different on a racial basis, at least not as a broad blanket statement would show. To me, there's no problem with recognizing that differences exist, but to act upon those differences is something that is a problem.
 
lizzie said:
I don't think they ARE different on a racial basis, at least not as a broad blanket statement would show.
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It is not clear to me what you mean by "not as a broad blanket statement would show." Let me ask it like this, are you saying that data, such as that which has been put forward in "Bell Curve", which indicates that blacks are less intelligent than other races is wrong? There is also data taken from standardized test scores that consistently show that black children are at the bottom compared to other races. Are you saying that this data is wrong or flawed?

lizzie said:
To me, there's no problem with recognizing that differences exist, but to act upon those differences is something that is a problem.
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If the differences are indeed there, it does not make sense to act as if they are not. Doesn't that seem unnatural to you?
 
MildSteel said:
If the differences are indeed there, it does not make sense to act as if they are not. Doesn't that seem unnatural to you?
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Well, acting on differences which are applied to an entire race, is faulty. There are no characteristics which are explicitly race-specific. At least none that I am aware of. Do you have something in mind?
 
lizzie said:
Well, acting on differences which are applied to an entire race, is faulty.
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It may be faulty, but we live in an extremely complicated world, and as a result humans, because of their limited intelligence are forced to generalize. When we do so we indeed may miss the specifics, but it does allow us to function, because it is simply not possible to assess everything that we observe in it's fine detail. The point is, generalization is necessary, and if certain races do indeed in reality possess certain positive and/or negative traits, then some discrimination, even at a personal level is unavoidable.

lizzie said:
There are no characteristics which are explicitly race-specific. At least none that I am aware of. Do you have something in mind?
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So why do you think black children consistently score less than other children on standardized tests? Don't you think this indicates, that blacks as a group, are less intelligent than other races?
 
MildSteel said:
So why do you think black children consistently score less than other children on standardized tests? Don't you think this indicates, that blacks as a group, are less intelligent than other races?
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I suspect it's a mix of factors, including cultural. I haven't looked at the statistics, but if you look at highly successful blacks, one of the common threads seems to be that they often had parents who were demanding and expected excellence from their children. I'm not sure that there's an actual intelligence difference. Maybe there is, and I'm unaware of it. Another thing of note, at least in my experience, is that the Africans (not African Americans) I have known, and there have been many, due to my field of work, is that they almost always excel in educational endeavors, and that also seems to be cultural in their countries of origin.
 
MildSteel said:
It is not clear to me what you mean by "not as a broad blanket statement would show." Let me ask it like this, are you saying that data, such as that which has been put forward in "Bell Curve", which indicates that blacks are less intelligent than other races is wrong? There is also data taken from standardized test scores that consistently show that black children are at the bottom compared to other races. Are you saying that this data is wrong or flawed?
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The data is likely accurate. However, to assume 100% "nature" and no "nurture" would also toss overboard most of what we know about human development. Thomas Sowell, for example, has done some work demonstrating that - while as a group blacks score lower - if you measure only children raised in two parent homes in which the homes have books that are read to the child at a young age, scores are pretty much the same. In black society today, unfortunately, those factors are much less likely to be present, and it shows up in the scores. I would look at cultural shaping too - I had a friend in college tell me it was harder for him as a black guy to go to college than me, as a white dude. I protested that there were hosts of scholarships available to him that weren't to me. His reply has sort of stuck with me "yeah, but when you go home, your family doesn't assume you are a sucker for going to school." College was expected of me growing up. For him growing up, education was a "white thing", and he was looked down on for pursuing it. :shrug:

There might be some IQ differentiation as there is (for example) differentiation in height, body mass, vulnerability to disease, etc. But I would look to the nurture aspects of any significant IQ differentiation long before I would look to race-based genetics. Especially for Africans - who of all the ethnicities have the greatest genetic diversity.
 
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MildSteel said:
For whatever reason, we see that certain races or more prone to certain types of negative and/or illegal activity. Not only that, but certain books like the Bell Curve seem to suggest that certain races are less intelligent that other races. As such, if we are really to look at the world as it is, is a certain amount of racial discrimination justified?[/QUOTE]

Is the above your opinion. I have bolded some.
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lizzie said:
I suspect it's a mix of factors, including cultural. I haven't looked at the statistics, but if you look at highly successful blacks, one of the common threads seems to be that they often had parents who were demanding and expected excellence from their children. I'm not sure that there's an actual intelligence difference. Maybe there is, and I'm unaware of it. Another thing of note, at least in my experience, is that the Africans (not African Americans) I have known, and there have been many, due to my field of work, is that they almost always excel in educational endeavors, and that also seems to be cultural in their countries of origin.
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Supposedly there is data that shows that when you compare people of similar socio-economic backgrounds, blacks still perform more poorly. Don't you think that indicates that they are less intelligent? Is it not reasonable to assume that blacks of a higher socio-economic status would have a home culture that would be conducive to educational achievement?
 
cpwill said:
There might be some IQ differentiation as there is (for example) differentiation in height, body mass, vulnerability to disease, etc. But I would look to the nurture aspects of any significant IQ differentiation long before I would look to race-based genetics. Especially for Africans - who of all the ethnicities have the greatest genetic diversity.
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So if there is some IQ differentiation, why is not some discrimination justified? Isn't that just dealing with the world as it is?
 
JANFU said:
Is the above your opinion. I have bolded some.
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If you want to know what I honestly think, in terms of intelligence, a person is intelligent if he does the will of God and is not intelligent otherwise. By that standard practically all of us are unintelligent.
 
MildSteel said:
Supposedly there is data that shows that when you compare people of similar socio-economic backgrounds, blacks still perform more poorly. Don't you think that indicates that they are less intelligent? Is it not reasonable to assume that blacks of a higher socio-economic status would have a home culture that would be conducive to educational achievement?
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Just curious. What's the game you're playing?
 
MildSteel said:
For whatever reason, we see that certain races or more prone to certain types of negative and/or illegal activity. Not only that, but certain books like the Bell Curve seem to suggest that certain races are less intelligent that other races. As such, if we are really to look at the world as it is, is a certain amount of racial discrimination justified?
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Even if that is all true, which is not a point I'm actually conceding, it still isn't justified. There is a ridiculously high number of non-criminal intelligent black people for instance, and discrimination against an entire race would not be justifiable at all toward those people. Even if there is a slight difference in the bell-curves of different races, which again isn't something I'll actually concede to be true, it is not nearly enough to justify discriminatory policies toward an entire race.
 
Anagram said:
Even if that is all true, which is not a point I'm actually conceding, it still isn't justified. There is a ridiculously high number of non-criminal intelligent black people for instance, and discrimination against an entire race would not be justifiable at all toward those people. Even if there is a slight difference in the bell-curves of different races, which again isn't something I'll actually concede to be true, it is not nearly enough to justify discriminatory policies toward an entire race.
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Let's look at it like this. Suppose a person reads statistics that state that blacks, relative to their numbers, commit a disproportionate amount of crime. He then goes out on the street and is robbed and beaten by a group of black males. Would he not be justified in practicing some sort of discrimination, at least in his mind, in the future?
 
MildSteel said:
Supposedly there is data that shows that when you compare people of similar socio-economic backgrounds, blacks still perform more poorly. Don't you think that indicates that they are less intelligent? Is it not reasonable to assume that blacks of a higher socio-economic status would have a home culture that would be conducive to educational achievement?
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What does the research say? There's been a multitude of research done on these questions. You can answer them for yourself. Studying that research will surely get you more expert questions than an informal survey of Internet people.
 
There is no scientific study ever done which conclusively proves that people over the world from different races are of equal abilities - be they mental, physical or any other sort. If there is one that I am overlooking, I would appreciate being informed about it.

Having said that, we as a people... we as human beings ... have adopted the belief that people are equal irregardless of evidence either way.

So the more pertinent question is should we abort that belief in favor of the idea that people are NOT equal and some races, ethnic groups and nationalities are "superior" in some respects while others are "inferior" in other respects? And which respects will be considered as important?

And if we then do decide to discard the willful belief in equality, what are the societal and legal and policy implications of rejecting the belief in equality?

I do NOT think it is a purely speculative or academic question since history tells us what the result is. Slavery. Genocide. Exploitation. Abuse. Extermination. Mass murder.

Our belief in equality is NOT scientifically based and cannot be proven to actually be scientifically based. But we tried it the other way and the results are not acceptable.
 
haymarket said:
There is no scientific study ever done which conclusively proves that people over the world from different races are of equal abilities - be they mental, physical or any other sort. If there is one that I am overlooking, I would appreciate being informed about it.

Having said that, we as a people... we as human beings ... have adopted the belief that people are equal irregardless of evidence either way.

So the more pertinent question is should we abort that belief in favor of the idea that people are NOT equal and some races, ethnic groups and nationalities are "superior" in some respects while others are "inferior" in other respects? And which respects will be considered as important?

And if we then do decide to discard the willful belief in equality, what are the societal and legal and policy implications of rejecting the belief in equality?

I do NOT think it is a purely speculative or academic question since history tells us what the result is. Slavery. Genocide. Exploitation. Abuse. Extermination. Mass murder.

Our belief in equality is NOT scientifically based and cannot be proven to actually be scientifically based. But we tried it the other way and the results are not acceptable.
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So in other words, racial discrimination is sometimes justified.
 
haymarket said:
That is NOT the conclusion I would come to.
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I wanted to see exactly what your position is.

Ok. But if there is evidence to support the notion, then why would some amount of discrimination NOT be justifiable, at least at a personal level? If the differences are indeed there, it would appear that one would be merely dealing with reality as it exists. Don't you think to do otherwise would be unnatural?
 
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