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Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?

  • Total voters
    75
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
That has nothing to do with this case. If a judge decided that the law applies to them, then that decision is overturned later, the restraining order wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't change how much damages they incurred whether they had the restraining order or not.
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How would the judge do that if a federal court said noone could file the complaint until the constitutional aspects of the case were settled?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
How would the judge do that if a federal court said noone could file the complaint until the constitutional aspects of the case were settled?
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There is no constitutional grounds to file any complaint. The business in question did not face any legal action or damages against them. Such actions could easily be used to tie up any such laws in court just to cause issues later.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
"Still". Adverb. - Happening or existing before now and continuing into the present.
A small deviation would seem natural, but we are talking 5 months. I would at the very least call that a misrepresentation of fact.
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A lawyer representing facts in a light most complementary to the case they are trying to make. Not a real shock there. :mrgreen:


HK.227 said:
And since that is not in dispute, nor relevant to the suit at the time it was filed, I fail to see why you keep mentioning it.
I did agree with you that the suit is now pretty much irrelevant a few posts back, you know.
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Didn't say it was relevant to the suit at the time it was filed. It is though relevant to whether the suit will proceed.


HK.227 said:
If that was an appeal to authority, it wasn't a very convincing one. The merits of any case are up to the judge or jury to decide.
We are starting to go over ground we've covered already, so unless you have something new to add...
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Not an appeal to authority, a recognition of a fact. The city has formally said that The Hitching Post, LLC, which no longer performs Civil Marriages, is exempt from the law under the religious corporation clause. As such a summary dismissal is in order if the ADF doesn't withdraw the case since there is no case of merit remaining. We'll have to see what the result is, IIRC there was another recent delay so it will be sometime in February before we find out if their will by either (a) a decision based on filings or a (b) a hearing on the merits. There will be no "jury" deciding this case, it's not criminal law it's a civil case so it will be up to the Judge.


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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
There is no constitutional grounds to file any complaint. The business in question did not face any legal action or damages against them. Such actions could easily be used to tie up any such laws in court just to cause issues later.
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At the time the suit was filed, they had not yet been notified by the city that they were considered exempt, so it would not be unreasonable to believe that a complaint was imminent.
And yes they could, but the same could be said for any restraining order, so unless you're advocating that they should be abolished...
 
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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

WorldWatcher said:
We'll have to see what the result is, IIRC there was another recent delay so it will be sometime in February before we find out if their will by either (a) a decision based on filings or a (b) a hearing on the merits.
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February. Thanks for the information.
I doubt if the Court will have anything interesting to say though. If the imminent danger of violation of rights the suit claimed to exist are gone, the court won't have to rule on the "meat" of the case.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

What's the difference in telling a church/religious organization that they must perform services outside of their beliefs and telling a florist, baker, photographer or other business/individual that they must participate in a service outside of their religious beliefs?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
At the time the suit was filed, they had not yet been notified by the city that they were considered exempt, so it would not be unreasonable to believe that a complaint was imminent.
And yes they could, but the same could be said for any restraining order, so unless you're advocating that they should be abolished...
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They had already filed to change their status which would then make them exempt. Their wise why bother to change their status and business model?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

ksu_aviator said:
What's the difference in telling a church/religious organization that they must perform services outside of their beliefs and telling a florist, baker, photographer or other business/individual that they must participate in a service outside of their religious beliefs?
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Public businesses which are selling personal goods and legally and economically limited in how many can operate are different from private churches which don't sell anything and are not limited by their numbers. Anyone can start their own church up and it could discriminate for any reasons because they are not providing goods or services to the public.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
They had already filed to change their status which would then make them exempt. Their wise why bother to change their status and business model?
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You are right, it should, but they were running out of time. SSM's were starting to come into effect. Until the city formally declared that they were no longer liable, why take the chance that a complaint might go against them?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
Public businesses which are selling personal goods and legally and economically limited in how many can operate are different from private churches which don't sell anything and are not limited by their numbers. Anyone can start their own church up and it could discriminate for any reasons because they are not providing goods or services to the public.
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I am unaware of these exclusive church's you speak of. Can you provide an example?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
You are right, it should, but they were running out of time. SSM's were starting to come into effect. Until the city formally declared that they were no longer liable, why take the chance that a complaint might go against them?
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No they weren't running out of time at all. They had until someone filed a complaint. And they had already changed their business model, were just waiting for it to go completely through. There is no difference in cost to them in how they did it and if they were defending themselves against a claim, especially given their status change. In fact, they could likely now incur more costs preempt ing a claim. Hopefully it also costs them business.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

roguenuke said:
No they weren't running out of time at all. They had until someone filed a complaint. And they had already changed their business model, were just waiting for it to go completely through. There is no difference in cost to them in how they did it and if they were defending themselves against a claim, especially given their status change. In fact, they could likely now incur more costs preempt ing a claim. Hopefully it also costs them business.
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It would cost them whatever they had to pay from the moment a complaint was acted upon and until some sort of appeal changed that, plus legal fees.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

ksu_aviator said:
I am unaware of these exclusive church's you speak of. Can you provide an example?
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Ever try to enter a Mormon temple and you aren't a Mormon? Churches can refuse to make anyone a member of their clergy. Based on anything, race, sex, disability, sexuality, whatever. Do you think the Westboro baptist lye anyone in their church they haven't vetted? Many churches have refused to marry people based on race and religion.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
It would cost them whatever they had to pay from the moment a complaint was acted upon and until some sort of appeal changed that, plus legal fees.
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It would cost them lawyer fees and court costs, the same as now, but only from the time they learned about any complaints. Fines and such only come up if they are deemed to have actually violated the law. If they are found to have to abide by these laws, then it won't matter if they were defending or started the action. In fact by them starting this action they are only costing themselves more money in legal fees and lawyer costs, whether the law is found to legally apply to them or not.

If they lost this case (not likely, given the info we have and what the city has put out, it will likely be dismissed), then they are still liable and actually more likely to have a complaint filed against them. If they are found to not be covered by the law, exempt from it, then this would be the same outcome defending a complaint but not cost them as much.
 
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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

There is already talk about removing church's tax exempt status. I suspect that some church's will "knuckle-under" to keep thier tax exempt status by agreeing to marrying homosexual couples.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
There is already talk about removing church's tax exempt status. I suspect that some church's will "knuckle-under" to keep thier tax exempt status by agreeing to marrying homosexual couples.
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From who? Extremists? Certainly not a majority of same sex marriage supporters.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

The Baron said:
There is already talk about removing church's tax exempt status. I suspect that some church's will "knuckle-under" to keep thier tax exempt status by agreeing to marrying homosexual couples.
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It hardly seems probable that the Catholics or Lutherans could marry homos. If they do, they will have become new religions.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

AGENT J said:
Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?
no
yes
other

Until equal rights was given to gays in large ways, personally, Ive never heard this argument which i consider to be completely irrational, a simple fear tactic and conspiracy theory.

I see no rational basis for this fear based on equal rights for gays since there are rights, laws, the constitution and countless court case precedences blocking something this stupid.

I havent met one person that thinks churches should be forced and the reality is churches already (before gay rights) legally discriminate on marriages probably in the 1000s a day in this country and always have.

They have against straight couples, gay couples, based on race, based on religion etc etc etc
why now, magically, will this change?
why was it not a fear when minority rights were granted? womans rights? and its never been a fear based on religious discrimination?

I see ZERO logic in something so absurd BUT, I'm very curious how many people fear this lunacy and thier reasonings . . . maybe im missing something completely logical. SO far I havent seen any, so please share if it happens youll get to do a big I TOLD YOU SO lol

anyway my vote is no . . HELL NO lol

also FYI if i ever did see it as a reasonable possibility i would fight my way to the front of the line to fight it tooth and nail!
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No, I don't. Churches are private organizations who should abstain from politics and therefore politics shall abstain from churches. Gay marriages will take place in some churches by choice and or edict, but most will be civil services I think.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

AGENT J said:
Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/rational?
no
yes
other

Until equal rights was given to gays in large ways, personally, Ive never heard this argument which i consider to be completely irrational, a simple fear tactic and conspiracy theory.

I see no rational basis for this fear based on equal rights for gays since there are rights, laws, the constitution and countless court case precedences blocking something this stupid.

I havent met one person that thinks churches should be forced and the reality is churches already (before gay rights) legally discriminate on marriages probably in the 1000s a day in this country and always have.

They have against straight couples, gay couples, based on race, based on religion etc etc etc
why now, magically, will this change?
why was it not a fear when minority rights were granted? womans rights? and its never been a fear based on religious discrimination?

I see ZERO logic in something so absurd BUT, I'm very curious how many people fear this lunacy and thier reasonings . . . maybe im missing something completely logical. SO far I havent seen any, so please share if it happens youll get to do a big I TOLD YOU SO lol

anyway my vote is no . . HELL NO lol

also FYI if i ever did see it as a reasonable possibility i would fight my way to the front of the line to fight it tooth and nail!
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Only a total jerk could demand religious persons of majority Christian Congregations participate in gay marriages.

But there are a lot of jerks out there, so beware!
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

joG said:
Only a total jerk could demand religious persons of majority Christian Congregations participate in gay marriages.

But there are a lot of jerks out there, so beware!
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well good thing thats not going on, so as a christian im completely safe
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

HK.227 said:
February. Thanks for the information.
I doubt if the Court will have anything interesting to say though. If the imminent danger of violation of rights the suit claimed to exist are gone, the court won't have to rule on the "meat" of the case.
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Thanks for the reasonable conversation. ;)


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Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

AGENT J said:
well good thing thats not going on, so as a christian im completely safe
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I have heard of persons being coerced into participation in gay marriage and punished, where they refused.
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

joG said:
I have heard of persons being coerced into participation in gay marriage and punished, where they refused.
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not in this country you most certainly have not lol
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

AGENT J said:
not in this country you most certainly have not lol
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In which country are you?
 
Re: Do you believe the idea of churches being forced to marry people is likely/ration

joG said:
In which country are you?
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united states of america
 
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